Episode 22: David Zach — Meet Rock Band Frontman Combating Human Trafficking
David Zach is the frontman for the rock band, Remedy Drive. He uses his music to shine a light on slavery and injustice and the band helps to rally ordinary people to fund and participate in the modern day abolition movement through The Exodus Road.
He also does undercover work with The Exodus Road to find evidence of sex trafficking. They use the evidence that we gather to make raids against trafficking networks that result in the arrests of traffickers and the freedom of trafficked girls and boys.
The Exodus Road is a global organization strategically fighting human trafficking by working with police to gather evidence, they facilitate rescue missions, and empower aftercare for survivors. They also offer trainings and technology to equip others in the work on the front lines. Founded in 2011, our trained operatives are ordinary heroes with a proven track record of over 1,431 rescues and 739 trafficker arrests.
We have this conversation actually on January 11, which just a short while ago, and it was actually on the National Human Trafficking Awareness Day in the USA.
Remedy Drive began back in 1998, and released five independent albums, and toured all over the Midwest, making a name for themselves in the Christian rock scene. Before signing to Word Records in 2008, the band averaged 200 concerts a year and its albums sold in the tens of thousands.
By 2012 they started writing justice orientated songs and ended up leaving their record label to release Commodity in 2014 — the first of now three counter-trafficking concept albums. "Imago Amor" the latest album released shortly after we recorded this podcast in January 2021 and is available at their website remedydrive.com or wherever good music can be found.
To learn more about The Exodus Road visit their website at theexodusroad.com or follow them on instagram and twitter @theexodusroad.
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Full Transcript
David Zach
I want to be courageous. And courage is looking fear in the face and moving forward anyways and that even if you know like I said I don't understand how it how it last throughout eternity. But I know that my courage is inspiring my kids to be courageous and my hope is helping to foster hope in them and then will carry this torch they pass on. And I believe like Dr. King said that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.
Tim Buxton
Welcome to Justice Matters, the podcast inspiring a world where everyone belongs. I'm your host, Tim Buxton.
Hey, everyone, its Tim here. Welcome to Justice Matters. Today we have on the show David Zach he is the frontman for the band that is called Remedy Drive. They are all the way in the USA. But he is more importantly, as he would say, he is an advocate and passionate volunteer for an anti human trafficking organization called The Exodus project he uses his band and has done over the last few years, not only through the album's that he has been writing on counter trafficking, but also when he tours and performs to draw attention to the incredible work that this organization called the exodus project is doing all around the world. Today more than ever, humans.... More humans have been enslaved than any time in history, guys, and 70% of them are women and girls that have been exploited in the sex industry. And that is one of the main focuses that we talk about today on the program. And so just a bit of a warning. A heads up for those of you who are listening, some very sensitive issues are being talked about. We have this conversation actually on January 11, which just a short while ago, and it was actually on the National Human Trafficking Awareness Day in the USA. And so for people all over the country, their their hearts and minds would draw an attention to this, you know, tragic, but very important issue that needs to be talked about more than ever. And so without further ado, here's my conversation with David Zach.
Tim Buxton
So thanks, David, for for coming on. And I'm so glad we timed it perfectly. Because Yeah, we did. I don't really know what's going on politically, we'll always be stuff going on to talk about. But I don't think they could be anything more important to be talking about then on a day like today, than this issue of human trafficking. And you've been part of that and involved in that for a long time. But your background really is is as a musician, frontman for a band, the remedy. Dr. David, thanks for coming on the podcast.
David Zach
I'm glad to be on it.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. As I mentioned, there probably isn't a better topic to talk about on a day like today. Because I think so much of the chatter and noise about political issues about even COVID. What we don't really understand, I think enough is underneath the surface, there's this heinous industry that is going on and probably getting worse on our watch, while we're distracted with all these other things, and how important it is to shine a light on on the abuses and the exploitation that have happening to millions and millions of people. enslavement happened to millions of people on a daily basis. Can you tell me a bit about the exodus project who would share a part of as their one of their key strategic relationship guys? And a bit about their work just to kind of frame things as we as we talk about this topic today? Yeah.
David Zach
The Exodus road is a non government organization. It's been around for 10 years, and I've been volunteering with the exodus roads for seven years now. And our, our, our goal is to find and free enslaved people. And there's 40 million people that are impacted by slavery on our watch, like you said, and I agree, I think it's accelerated. I think there's more slavery. There's more creative ways that criminal networks and crime syndicates are taking advantage of vulnerable people especially In a time when there's so many people, displaced from their homes running from war running from violence running from starvation. And so we focus on under age, sex trafficking, of girls and boys. And we are oftentimes, just a little bit north you in Southeast Asia, we work in Latin America, we're in India, and we're here in the United States as well. So we use covert cameras, we use cyber forensics gear, we use technologies that I didn't know existed in the private sector, to to leverage all of that, and the generosity of my band's fan base the generosity of people around the world that care about somebody else's daughter, we leverage all that together, to partner with law enforcement to find evidence of trafficking. And then we use that evidence to make raids that result in the freedom of these girls and these boys and result in dismantling the criminal that serves the criminal networks that are responsible for this misery.
Tim Buxton
David, I've got some really good friends that have been involved in this work. friends over a 21, who you probably aware of is another organization and group in Canada called ally global, there's the International Justice Mission, I think it's called our jam. There's so many groups and and quite honestly, there couldn't be enough. And one of the things you mentioned, though, and this kind of is a real, I guess, passion spot for me is this whole idea of the vulnerability that has escalated because of displacement. I spent several years living in Iraq, working with displaced people and refugees. And as we look at a day like today, where there's 80 million forcibly displaced from their homes more than any other time in history, since World War Two, at least, and we have, but this displacements only accelerating which means that more and more people are vulnerable, more and more people are. Yeah, at this point in time, at risk of being exploited. I don't think there could be enough organizations like yours, that you're a part of out there doing the work, yet, it's a very difficult time, because resources have never been more stretched thin with what's been going on in the impact of COVID. Financially resources are drying up for those that are vulnerable and and victims. What what is what is some of the things that how is the exodus project in this time period? Have you been kind of coping with some of the challenges that have been presented? Because of COVID? Because of, yeah, a lot of the recent increase in in war and conflict and and issues that have pelted our world lately?
David Zach
Well, we didn't see we didn't see everything changing. It was a year ago exactly that I was in Southeast Asia. And we do in person work mostly right, we're going in to, to places where, where we suspect or we've been told we've got a tip, or we have evidence that children are being sold, or teenage girls are being sold. And we we rely primarily on our local teams. So it is the Thai team running the operations in Thailand, it's the Indian women and men in India that are heading things up. And my role in that as Westerners like, we come in to support their work on a short term basis, usually. And they and they need that from us because sex tourism is a real thing. I meet a ton of Australians, in those brothels in those clubs, I meet a lot of, you know, Americans and Russians. So there's a there's an industry, so it's normal for it for a tourist to come into those places. But then when everything closed down, you know, some of the countries working are more aggressive with their lockdown. So the brothels are locked down, obviously. So it was an opportunity for teams to move into cyber, cyber work. Online, a lot of kids are being sold online and advertised online. So they our technology, and the training and the technology has been more robust in this last year. So that's a that's a positive at the same time, I remember a year ago, in Latin America a year ago in Thailand, as well, especially in Latin America, meeting so many precious Venezuelans that just don't have any options. And not just the girls that are being sold like they might cut their hair. When they come across the bridge into one of the neighboring countries, and they sell their hair for next to nothing, and then they have nothing left to sell. And so those issues are tied together. You can't love and care for enslaved people without having that same love and care for displaced people and refugees.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, it. I mean, I think there's what some 4 million Venezuelans that have been displaced? I don't know, which is a phenomenal leader. Overwhelmingly large amount of people. Yeah. And there's nothing when you're a foreigner, and in a foreign land, you have nothing, you have no rights. And yeah, like you said, the vulnerability just escalates. And I think it's interesting, too, you mentioned how a lot of things moved online. So there's probably been just an escalation in online cyber exploitation of children, women that are confined at home, but but, but that doesn't stop the traffic is from utilizing that means and method of exploitation of you has Exodus road noticed. That kind of impact.
David Zach
Yeah, and they're gonna break the law, so they're gonna break, they don't necessarily have to stay home. So they have, they have, we have been part of busts recently, where there are multiple teenagers being forced to perform sex acts on camera, whether it's a live stream, or to create pornography, at the, with some sort of fraud or force or coercion. You know, that's how you define sex trafficking, if there's fraud involved, this is forcing involved if there's coercion involved, so they're doing that and and they're creative. And they're, you know, traffickers and criminals, they're creative, a lot of times because of a desperation. And because they have, they have a quota to fill, or because they have mouths to feed. But then because our teams is that they are equally creative, as well, and they find a way through it. But someone that comes from Venezuela, a lot of times they go all the way through Brazil, because it's gonna be hard to to to flee Venezuela, and end up in Brazil, but you have to pass through if you don't speak Spanish, right? It's Portuguese, in Brazil, so some of the countries that were in down there, these people have already had such a long journey to and then to end up thinking they're going to have some sort of employment and end up getting tricked or coerced into prostitution. It's hard. It's hard when she's 15, or 14. And it's hard when my hands are tied to and what everything you want to do you just want to run with this girl and say, you know, let's let's, let's escape, but you can't, the goal is to, to do real impact, have real systemic change, we've got to take down those criminal networks responsible for her misery.
Tim Buxton
Can you take me back to maybe the first time you were involved? I'd love to hear obviously, a bit of your background and how you got involved into, you know, counterterrorism, work, counterterrorism, counter trafficking, counter trafficking work. But what I would love to hear you just kind of alluded to what it's like being inside and wanting to grab a girl's hand and say, Let's run Can you remember the first time that you were, you were thrust into that situation?
David Zach
The first the first time I remember that feeling like it was just so strong, was in 2014, I met Matt Parker from the exodus road at the end of 2013. And up until that point, I was a musician. It's still what I do for my day job. And I was I want to recruit my, my band's community, my fan base to help pour money into an organization. And I thought I'd found one I'm and I'm sitting across the table from a guy that's my age. It's got three kids. And he's telling about the work and I'm like, man, I don't want you to sing about this. Let me let me go with you. Let me let me at least see what it is. So I can be informed and I have some lyrics, right? Maybe being over there would inspire some lyric man, I had no idea. So Matt says you should talk to your wife first. And so I talked to Anna and it's like, we're doing this David's gonna join you this will be our legacy. And so it was only two or three months after that. in Southeast Asia. I'm and I was in you mentioned a 21. I was in back in one of the offices that we shared some space with them in a back room with another organization seeing like confidential paperwork, about ongoing raids with pictures of ongoing investigations, pictures of some of the some of the traffickers and It was just exciting to me like, like, while I'm here, I get to see this firsthand, I get to participate. And then they sent me in and I, one of the first missions I was on, I was helping to spot a part of a pedophile ring of Westerners that lived one of them from from the United States that live in this particular area, but they had some sort of networks that were trying to identify all the pieces of that network. So my job was just it, literally just have a coffee at a place where they knew was frequented by some individuals. And those guys showed up. So I was able to, you know, there's just all I, my job was to text, these guys are here, these guys are leaving, but then because that we found out where they lived, who and so we were able to stake out those houses, as well and find out. So we want to build a case against that. And that work is exciting work like it's fun, to, to, to, to spy on somebody that you know, is a criminal and to know that you're part of helping to take them down. And so that was exciting everything. But then one night, we went on a drive, and they're like, okay, we're going to do something new. We're going out in the jungle. And we're gonna go to places where we know they're selling young girls. And we drove through, it was just all dark. And I looked, I looked at the one I said, Hey, I think there's a couple girls standing in front of like that barn. And I was like, Oh, no, they're too young. And we we pulled back and we said are the ladies here? You say lady, and they brought us inside these girls were like 14 years old. And this one girl's name was June. And I remember it. I was born in June. I remember, I remember this moment more than most, because it was the first time where I just felt totally helpless. Like, what are we doing? And so there was a negotiation. We had some drinks, they had to go get the beers from down the street. It was just such an odd environment. And you know, you're talking with the girl you're using Google Translate on your phone, what's your name, you know? And she says, June and she says, Where are you from? And I say, United States. I said America, she said America. And she was just so such a tender child. And yet she still had the elegance of a woman. She was just wearing a midriff flip flops. And we got the everything we needed. We got the evidence, these people are selling teenage girls for sex. And we took it up to that point where we said how much it's gonna cost. And then bunch of like four motorcycles pulled up, and some rough looking guys came in and the guy that was leading that there's like three or four of us, he said, hey, it's time to go, we got up. And I was fumbling. And in Thai, Thai money's hard because there's that that the 1000 baht looks like 100. But color wise, they're very similar colors. So you can actually spend 30 $30 USD instead of three and I'm familiar with the money I pay my hands. I'm not like Leonardo DiCaprio in that movie. What's it called? Um, the departed, he like you know, I always have a steady hand. I don't always have a steady hand. And, and, you know, there's processing so much. And I went, I look back, we're getting ready to get on our back in our vehicle. And I look back and I just saw her there for a second. And it's just so wrong. How can I leave that girl there? And I waved goodbye and and leaving it was it was hard. There's no way to describe how that feels.
Tim Buxton
It's like you can never unsee or unknown something you can go on your life and ignore it. But you'll always have that with you.
David Zach
William Wilberforce says, you can choose to look the other way. But you can never again say you did not know. There you go. I something he said. And this is an old song, but I wrote about that moment. I said, if we didn't know, then we wouldn't have to care, would we? But I saw it with my own eyes over there. I breathe the heavy air in the neon streets underneath the stars. In the Far East. I caught her eye looking back at me. And tonight I can hear her sing carry me home on the wings at the dawn. Don't leave me alone. Let me sing a new song. So I wrote that lyric, just based on that that short split second of so we went back. A corrupt cop took a bribe. So we weren't able to rescue June that night, or that that next time that our team went in, but then that summer, several months later they went back and they rescued June and a couple other girls from agent that that place doesn't exist every now and then, when I'm over in that part of the world, I'll drive and see it's, there's still no brothel open there.
Tim Buxton
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David Zach
So that's exciting.
Tim Buxton
And it's rare. I mean, it's rare. And that's the sad. That's beautiful. But all the more to inspire the work to continue. That's thanks for sharing that story. David, man, I know that's that's it's not always easy, I don't think to talk about some of the difficult things, but it's just so important. And I guess that's kind of why I'm so determined to continue on with this podcast and having conversations about very, very difficult roar. things we'd much rather just turn a blind eye to and ignore. So thanks for sharing that story. But it's something that just like for you, I think there came a point where you're like, I got to get involved in this. This is something that I need to commit my life to, or and it's law. I want to hear a bit about that too. Because I think there's people listening. I know it's happened to me in my own life, the things I've seen and the experiences I've had in my life that have changed me forever and set me on a course where I'm going to live like this now because I think those hearing what happened in your life and the trajectory, it's taken you as someone who's, you know, had a good amount of success in the music industry, and is going to inspire anybody listening today that, hey, hopefully they listen that something might spark in them, Hey, this is something I've got a, I got to do something about and not just here and say, Oh, that's nice and good for them. Tell me about your, your story. I mean, your band, the remedy drive was doing pretty well. And, and then you kind of had a moment, I guess where you're What? Why don't you tell the story a bit about how things can change and how things. I don't want to spoil it. But, uh, but um, yeah, can you take from their day.
David Zach
So I grew up in Nebraska, which is in the middle of the United States. never dreamed, never when I started playing guitar playing piano, that my songs would end up on the radio, in Australia. And in Scotland. I was on an interview with a guy in Scotland today, too. And it's overwhelming to me like it. And I never get used to that. Like, I'm so thankful for that. And I got everything I hoped I got I never I, I built it. And I, you know how you just try. You're trying to build something. I'm trying to build this thing. And we're being strategic. We're building a team, we have a label. And that's what I thought about. I woke up in the morning and thought, I hope we can keep it pushing it up the hill, you know, I hope that this, this single does better than the last one. I hope that this album, and we're all wired that way. Right? Sure. And but then every now and then something would just completely interrupt that mindset. And one of those things was George W. Bush invited Bano to the prayer breakfast Speech and Hearing Bano say to the President of the United States. God is in the slums. He's in the cardboard boxes where the poor Playhouse he's in the cries heard under the rubble and the debris of war. He's in a silence of a mother who's infected her daughter with a virus of the boat die from and he's, he's with you, if you're, he's, he's with us, if we're with them, that's where he is. And it was weird. I was like, Man, I've never heard anybody talk that way. And it had moved something. You said ignite a spark, it put oxygen on a spark that already exists. Yeah. And that I know already exists in anybody watching or listening to this. And there's about 50 of those moments for me that were just really, really distilled. And another one was Martin Luther King Junior's last speech. And he's talking and he says, like anybody, I want to live a long life. longevity has its place, but I just want to do God's will, with the people will get to the promised land, I might not get there with you. And he says, Now is the time for us to develop a kind of dangerous on selfishness. And man, that's just it, grab, grab hold of me, what am I doing with my life, I'm, and then I thought maybe I'm gonna start using what I love doing. I'm going to try to do it in the direction of justice and mercy and compassion, and freedom. And, and then it was in 2012. I'm watching that Kony documentary that a lot. A lot of people remember that Invisible Children made this 30 minute viral, most watched long form YouTube video at the time, just happened like that. But we had been doing concerts with them on and off fundraising events. But there's something about that, and I was watching it with my daughter who was five years old at the time and, and Ava says dad, and it's for people listening that don't know about Koni Koni is a warlord that would kidnap children and enslave them and force the boys to fight. He displaced millions of people, I think just him somehow
Tim Buxton
The Lord's Resistance Army. Yeah, that he was a part of. Yeah, has wreaked havoc in the Congo and in several countries in that part of the world. Yeah.
David Zach
Yeah. And this, the sisters of these boys would be forced to be the child brides of generals. And so there's sex trafficking, there's labor trafficking, there's whatever you call child soldier trafficking, all this different kinds of slavery. My daughter says, Dad, why not? God, protect those boys. and combine that with those two other events in my life and all these all these nudges in that direction that I was experienced in that time. That's when I started writing the album. That led up to me meeting Matt Parker, so he didn't know I was writing this album called commodity.
Tim Buxton
Okay,
David Zach
I'm a soul that's in a body, not a commodity
Tim Buxton
The Album came first
David Zach
yeah, well Cuz that's I mean, I'm a songwriter. That's what I'm supposed to do, right? I'm supposed to, you know, use what what I have, because that's the most skill that I have. Unlike Liam Neeson, his character in the movie taken. And so that's how it, that's how it all started for me. And then there's moments of convergence, just like these other places. When I was sitting there with Matt, I was like, Man, you realize I'm, I'm already writing this stuff. So I was asking him to go with him. And it just, it happened so naturally, and so in such a way that I could never have orchestrated. So for somebody listening, whether it's fighting slavery, or something else in the arena of freedom, and justice, and mercy, and compassion, if you take a step forward, if you lean into that sorrow, lean into that fear, and that, that voice, that's that's nudging you in that direction, I have a confidence that the road will pave itself before you I believe that was on my heart.
Tim Buxton
100%. And I've seen that even in my own life, the minute I've decided to take a step in that direction, you It's like when you're driving on the on the road, and you've, you might buy a car you've bought and then suddenly you see all those cars that you've just bought everyone you're like, I thought I was the only one with this car, suddenly you start seeing them everywhere. It's kind of one of those things where it's like, a new lens is opened up and people you meet and opportunities become available. for you though, it also kind of changed your whole what you started writing, not just one album about it. But you're now on to your Is it your third album, and it's releasing this month? Mr. Margo Moore is that is that Latin for image of love, or I don't know if it's meant to be
David Zach
Image of love, if love Spanish image of his Latin. Okay. I just wanted to prove once you know, the previous album, the North Star I wrote based off of Frederick Douglass abolition newspaper. So I wanted something that if you googled it, it's going to be anything that comes up. Plus, it's a really, I love the idea of looking at someone else and realizing that that person is so intricately and so so precisely designed in the image of love, and I'm not even sure exactly what I mean by that. And I'm having a blast, trying to learn to talk about it. And this is the front end of learning to talk about it. But But I know that person that I vehemently disagree with in so many ways. I'm trying to in my own life, view them as someone who not just has the capacity for love, but is is created in love and that that divine spark. I'm trying to look past everything else and try to see straight to that, whether it's a trafficker Yeah, what, whether it's a traffic girl or refugee are the boats the responsible for refugees running. And those responses for us not being able to help refugees as much as I'd want to. I'm trying to, to remember that person is how do I love that person? So that's for me, that's the practical application of titling it tha.
Tim Buxton
One, one of the greatest funs I've had this summer holidays summit here in Australia, is that I've been I've introduced my kids, I've got a 10 year old daughter and an eight year old son and a seven year old daughter almost seven. And I introduced them to the Star Wars, kind of see watching them from from like, you know, the, the from one from the Phantom Menace, and we're up to the last Jedi now. And the cool thing is, is is up into this point, and I said, my favorite are the middle three actually, which is interesting. The older ones they call them that we love those ones. But there's this there's this theme in there that there's still some good in the dark side. There's still some good in Darth Vader and you should have seen them when Darth Vader finally at the end kind of turned around. There was something inside that ignited my kids like yes, like this isn't just a bad guy. Good guy, the bad guy kind of is just the bad guy all the way to the end. Like there is something good in humanity even in the worst of us. And I think, gosh, I think anyone that just has a good hard look at ourselves and realize Look what about the guy in the mirror you know? I need Have mercy on I in need of compassion. Kindness in somehow I think there's something beautiful to acknowledge that the greatest power in this world is love and it can win the day if we still believe there's a chance and it just seems like I don't know, there's too much hopelessness kind of dominating the airwaves at the moment at the minute especially right now. It seems like there's just finger pointing at every other side. I like what you mentioned there about searching for that image of love in, in all of us in any body. Yeah. Yeah.
David Zach
Well, first of all, this is just for you and anybody else? I love it that you went one to nine, right? Which I don't know how I'd do it. If I had to do over again. Do you go? You know, would you go four or five, six, like we experienced it? Go back to 123. But then, we just rolled all the way through Mandalorian. But we had watched the Clone Wars, which the Clone Wars are between three and four? Isn't that the rebels? It's animated. I wish it would I've acted with a story telling in the rebel series, set you up for Mandalorian then you just see that everything is complicated. It's really healing actually to watch that stuff right now. You see that? There's everything is very complicated and nuanced. Yes. And you if I, if I put myself in the position of any of those characters, and I do it in real life, what would I do in real life? If, if I'm running from conflict, you know, what I? What would I become? Could I become that? And if if I if I say those people look at those people I would never I would never then I've already failed. Yeah, because I need to know I that there are not those people I and you said love like I can hear I can imagine somebody listening saying where he said you know, he's said all the cliche lyrics one side, you know, all we need is love. Love can win the day, blah, blah, blah. And people like roll their eyes. Yeah, but I am convinced of it. And not just this feeling. I'm talking about self sacrificial laying down of my rights and my perspective. Yeah. And in consideration, selflessly, and sometimes dangerously unselfishly, like Martin Luther King Jr. said, considering what this person's going through. And I'm trying to do that I'm failing a lot. But I'm trying to do that. And it's,
Tim Buxton
It's kind of hard to avoid the cliches and I think one of the things even now, especially when we're faced like, with this moment, I'm fortunate enough I actually gladly say is fortunate enough to have hold a US passport as well. I married an American and it's really sad to be honest in grieving to see what is happening in the us right now. And and the reason I bring that in his because in moments like these, it's easy to lose hope. It's easy to look at the human trafficking statistics, and the just be overwhelmed by the situation and the degradation of humanity. To be honest, I think that we can actually get this low as a society and just lose hope. But they're like we like you said like you believe it with all your heart that hope will win the day that love will win the day and as much as a cliche as it sounds.
David Zach
Yeah.
Tim Buxton
One of the reasons I've kind of rebranded Season Two of Justice Matters with a yellow kind of color. And, and I'll do a different color for season three, but the reason why I chose yellow and I didn't really know realize this till after the fact kind of like how you're figuring out why it's named imago more is this idea of yellow is like this hope is a picture of the sunrise it's bright it's it's got this feeling of there is still a new day the sun's gonna come up and there's still opportunity there's still hope while I have breath right there's still life there's still hope springs eternal, right? as they say. Yeah. And, and, and when we look at what's going on what I would I want to know what inspires you what Where does your hope lie? What is it that keeps you going hope can sustain us hope can keep someone who's like, like, You know, should be dead, stay alive to hopefully see their loved one or their family. Hope. There's a guy named Viktor Frankl who, who who suffered in, in, I think it was an off switch and a concentration camp. And he is the founder of logotherapy. This psychotherapy that's used. And he talked a lot about those that ended up giving up and dying in a concentration camp. It was the lack of hope and lack of meaning. And so what is it for you that as you confront this tragic, tragic industry, that still gives you hope?
David Zach
Well, it was a Russian philosopher, that I don't know why I haven't written his name down. I should have it up here. He said something along the lines of this, there's, it's it's easy to I'll just talk me and kind of paraphrase everything he said. But it's easy, it's easy to look at the this trajectory of human history and, and think, man, we're just getting beat up and defeated by this great darkness. It's we're just getting annihilated. Generation after generation falls into the same stupid mistake starting with a guy hitting his brother with a rock in the head. And I love the movie, Noah, this part of it, because there's weird parts where that rock turned into a dagger turned into a gun turned into a, you know, then that back it was like to do and then back, you know, bow and arrow like a hatchet. Now we and we've, you know that our violence is always pushing our technology forward. And our technology is always pushing our violence forward. And like you said, 80 million people displaced by this, that we will not learn we refuse to learn? And is is that the story of human history? Or that this great darkness crushing? What is human crushing the image of love in all of us crushing that divine spark? Or is it the fact that after all these 1000s of years, all these 1000s of years, this great darkness has failed to crush what is beautiful in us, it is failed, darkness is failed. And all I have to do is turn a light on. All I have to do is turn a candle on and it it doesn't even exist, right corruption is is is temporary. It can't last because it's corrupt. All that corruption, all the lies, all the all the all the all the violence, it's it's temporary. But there is something that is enduring. There's an enduring quality, to selfless actions. There's an enduring quality to courage. And I don't know how it works, law theologians. But there's something about when, when you are brave, that's going to echo throughout all eternity. It's going out with the stars. And the fear, and the sorrow is real. I know it to be real, it's real. But I want to be courageous. And courage is looking fear in the face and moving forward anyways. And that even if you know like I said, I don't understand how it how it last rally attorney. But I know that my courage is inspiring my kids to be courageous. And my hope is helping to foster hope in them and then they will carry this torch they pass on it. And I believe like Dr. King said that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. And that's why justice matters, matters. We are going to pull down on that work with all my way with your microphone. With your podcast with my band with our selfless action with our time with our art with our moral capital. We're pulling it and I don't know what it looks like. But I know that darkness will not prevail. I have confidence that when the light shines in the darkness, darkness can't comprehend it. And so that's a long answer your question? I don't know what it looks like, but I have this confidence. Otherwise why would Why would we keep on trying? Not going to end it in our lifetime. But I don't have a lot of patience for the idea of Hey, this stuff has always been going on it looks like it's getting worse. Why even try what it what it what a cynical way to live. I want it that way. I'm I sound a lot of times you might we talk a lot I'm gonna sound kind of jaded or cynical. But my response is I'm not cynical. I wouldn't be doing this if I cynical I wouldn't be trying to join the other team.
Tim Buxton
And when it comes to the beautiful means of art and music to tell that hopeful story. How has that helped you? Because I would only assume that it it, it has. It isn't in, in the sense that there's something beautiful if I think that there was this guy who tweeted something. And basically, is this idea that, that, that love and human beauty is what will save the day that we can't just give in to big tech and AI, like, there's something that they cannot do that only the human being, you know, with that divine spark, divine image can do for this world, that, that, I think is so wonderfully expressed through music, through art, through our creative expressions as, as human beings. How's that? How is that kind of eaten? Have you seen that in your own? Your own life, your own profession, your own journey?
David Zach
So we all have that, that question in the back of our minds? To what extent is AI going to come into my industry? edit it is, it is going to try to come into the music industry, too. Right? My son was talking about, like algorithms and songwriting algorithms, and they are there, they're starting to try to get AI to write songs. But I agree with you there's, there are some songs, especially songs written. I heard a joke the other day, how are How are all these pop and country songs gonna get written? Now that there's restrictions on how many people can be in a room together? Yeah, they'll get like 10 people on to write one song. And sometimes the song can lose its soul. And I don't know what that means. So when when a song has a soul, it's what makes you cry. And then that crescendo, when that camera turns just right. And you can tell that the guy behind the camera lens was in tears. At that moment, when those actors and felt felt what they were saying, and they became one with the character. There is something trans cendant about art in general, but music I'm so thankful for, for being able to have music because you can close your eyes and you can play a song. And you can write a lyric, or listen to a song. And it's meaningful. The same song you have it, that same song can be meaningful at different points in your life in different situations. There's something about it that that that pokes into another reality. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's, there's another reality. And I don't know what that reality is. But music is one of the most clear ways to me that that reminds me there's something more than just skin and bones. I am not merely Mater, CS Lewis says, you know, thought itself if we're only material than thought itself is mere twitching of the gray matter. And they'll be able to teach, they'll be able to teach artificial intelligence to think but no, there's something maybe it's so subtle, but there's something that they can never explain that that we have. And so for me, when I write a song when I'm when I am coming back from a really traumatic experience with the exodus road, trying to put a melody to that experience has been so healing for me and one team that I'm so excited for you to hear with our shared passion is a song that I wrote called caravan princess. And I was in Latin America and you hear the way some people will talk. And try to strip that imago more from that girl that's just running for life and turn into a threat turn in an infestation or, or the dehumanizing language that you hear so often. Am I concerned? No, it happens in your country too. But just remembering She's She's. She's a precious majestic caravan Princess, I said with careless hairs with fierce eyes. And I wrote that right around the time that the Notre Dame had just caught on fire and seeing how quickly The international community came together to, to rightly so, repair that building. And yet, I'm like she is she is a cathedral. She's a temple of Holy Spirit. She's the image of the divine being crushed by wolves on the airwaves. So on the borderline can, when her pilgrimage is illegal, will you still pour water on her fires? She's a child. She is medieval, but she never told me your name. She's as young now as she is old. She's Santa Maria, she is Notre Dame. So I don't, I don't know why, but just to breathe those words into existence, or at least compile them together. It's so helpful to me. And I hope that especially on I said that she's crushed by wolves in the airwaves, there's so much negative energy, there's so much demonizing turning someone that thinks differently or comes from a different walk of life, turning them into the enemy that is just out there. It's there. I don't know where there is, but it's out there. So I want to put my songs out there too. I want to put these songs as just a glimmer of light in the midst of that, that sea of hopelessness and despair and, and pain and hurt and hatred.
Tim Buxton
Man I love being able to tell their story. Because so much of us are preoccupied with celebrities with leaders and politicians yet we don't give enough airtime we don't realize that the most beautiful, most necessary stories that need to be told the story of a unknown little girl that no one will ever hear about. And yet through through your gift you're able to give voice to that little girl. I think that is so that's something that I find so important and so beautiful about the use of music and art to tell the stories and and and to bring it back to what Bono said You know, that's where that's where God is. Is he even in the Notre Dame Cathedral more than he's in the heart and life of that little girl? I dare say he's far more present with her. Again, not to diminish the value that is the Notre Dame but it is pales in two ink. It's pales in in compare. And in comparison to her life. And your life and my life.
David Zach
Did you ever ever listen or watch the musical limits? Rob?
Tim Buxton
Oh, like it was my dad's favorite. And so yeah, and watched every semi decent film adaptations that there was out there that the Liam Neeson was in. It was Liam Neeson in one of them. I think he was environment and and then the one with the Russell Crowe and Hugh Jackman, that that came out but yeah, totally the story. It's beautiful.
David Zach
And Anne Hathaway Yes. But, so I didn't know this at the time. But if I had a point back, even earlier in my life, I would say that what prepared me for what Barnum said which, which prepared me for what Martin Luther King Jr. said, was the way I felt when I listened to those songs. And when I when I went through that story, because what the author of of and once again, I'm forgetting his name of limiter Raka.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Victor Hugo, right.
David Zach
Yeah, I think.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, I think was that I think did he also author Notre Dame the book?
David Zach
I don't know. Okay, but I know that I know that Hugo was a big influence on Dr. King. And what he did for me is he before before, you know, I saw myself most accurately depicted by the, the really strict police officer, I think john vasanas, his name and he was just, you know, letter of the law, this person's a criminal or this person is a good person. And to see that that priest after the guy stole from him, and they bring him back and the priest says, Why didn't you know he's like, I'm so glad you brought him back. Why don't you take all this you know, the candlesticks? Why don't you take all this other gold, it moved me It moved me. And then then when it was put to music, to love another love another person is to see the face of God. At the time, I was too young to have any idea what he meant. And that's what I'm starting to realize, to love another person is to see the face of God and that love is going to be dangerous. You got to put yourself in close proximity with somebody else's sorrow, and you're going to carry that sorrow you're going to, you're going to absorb some of their trauma. And that's a good reason not to get involved. That's the best reason not to get involved. But for anybody that's worried, like, I don't want to help refugees, I can't help slaves. I couldn't do it. It's going to be too difficult for me. I I don't like feeding people. I'm going to be too sorrowful. No, you want that? That sorrows, an ingredient that's missing from your life, that's gonna bring you a joy that you never dreamed possible? Like, I know that to be true.
Tim Buxton
Wow, man, I can't I can't help it bring it back to Star Wars and, and Yoda kind of instructing Luke, who just loses it because he's like, tried to, you know, he tries to kill Kylo Ren, you know, because he sees nothing but darkness in him and is that the wise one still sees? That? The answer to, to addressing this issue, if we are wise is to make sure that we, you know, to prevent it from happening in the first place means we've got to reach those that are at the very forefront of committing these crimes. We've got to go beyond and go go deeper into you know, these networks, and I know that there's a lot that the exodus project is doing and other organizations out there are trying to do but we cannot lose that. That sense of hope, even for the the worst. Yeah, yeah, they're a part of a good reminder.
David Zach
Part of loving the trafficker, which, which my kids heard me on a podcast once I said I love traffickers, because I do.
Tim Buxton
Yeah,
David Zach
Like it was hard for me. Let me finish my sentence. It's part of loving the traffickers wanting them to be arrested, and break whatever it is that give them a chance to rehabilitate. Give them a chance to evaluate what they've done what they're doing. And I was in Latin American. I watched in real time. People that two or three days before I had been drinking what I've been hanging out with, I've been partying with under the pretense. You know, I tricked him. Our team tricked them, we convinced them that we were we were what we were pretending to be and as a result, got an incredible amount of evidence on them. And then I watched their gates get busted in by the police. I got I saw this happen tonight. I don't even feel like I want it to feel. I didn't feel like Yeah, we got those guys. I felt one of them cried. He's probably like 25 and when I talked about American music, and he had a statue of liberty shirt on. And, and I connected with him on a on a real personal level, even though I can't stand what he's doing. He was creating synthetic drugs, I think some sort of ecstasy and so he got in a ton of trouble. And he was I don't think he realized that he was participating in human trafficking because he just had this kind of network and when he realized it when I saw him reading the rights and and they said that word in Spanish trucks a truck today let try to try to do less let's Chica says like, he was like, shocked and he was weeping and you know, it's not. It's not what do you think it is on any front? And I'm glad I have that softness. You know, I'm, I'm I'm hopeful that I that I that I remain soft Cobra Kai is what's kind of doing it for us. Uh huh. Okay, it seems it's Cobra Kai seems like an allegory for 2020. Right. It's really interesting.
Tim Buxton
I haven't got into that yet. I think I've just time poor at the moment. But
David Zach
it's, we're only on that because we ran out of rebels episodes.
Tim Buxton
Man. Well, I know it's getting late over there. And in Nashville, and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk some Star Wars amongst all the other more important things that we've discussed.
David Zach
Hey, can I share this with you? Yeah, sure. Um, this is something that I wish never had to have happened. But when I first started going over, my youngest daughter was pretty young. And she asked me one night when I was tucking her in, she said, so dad, when you're in Thailand, do you do use a lightsaber? So just the fact that for a while, this child looked at her dad, like a young Anikan Skywalker
Tim Buxton
A jedi knight
David Zach
You know, and I had to tell her no I don't carry weapons but since we were talking about Star Wars I had to interject that before you wrap up
Tim Buxton
I'm and in what a legacy Brian what a legacy to see your urine kids, you're mentioning that they've they've got a passion for this too. And and that's, you know, that's that's the other hope that that always is is there's a new generation that can see things differently that it doesn't always have to be the way it was. And if we give up now what what do we what are we telling our children what are we telling those that are looking up to us? That I think we're the heroes right I've got through four young children right that think the world of me Well, my youngest is is two and a half and he still just loves his mama like crazy and, and was booted me out of bed came in at six in the morning and was like get out of bed I'm gonna sleep with mama now you know, just know that these kids they just love us and look up to us and adore us and and thank you for for making the sacrifices you've had. I know. It's not always popular to make breaks with with certain music publishers and other things to do what is right to do what you're passionate about, even when it's not popular and all the best for that. Did you I mean, so it's coming out this latest album, did you want to quickly just kind of let people know what's what's what's about to drop.
David Zach
It's Imago Amor. It's 10 songs. It's it's a hopeful album. After listening this podcast, you'll for sure hear where some of the lyric came from, which will be fun. Especially that song Caravan Princess or wherever you listen to music. It's It's It's there. I listened
Tim Buxton
to lovely. And dragons. I love lovely. That was a beautiful and beautiful tune. And I'm looking forward to when the rest of the songs come out. But um, but um, yeah, that's coming out. And then with the exodus project, I think you've got some live event coming up as well at the end of the month in January. So if this drops before, then make sure you go to that as well.
David Zach
And something that's fun for people to do. I think it works. I don't know you've been texting me and it works fine. But if you text remedy to 51555. So it's our band's first name, Remy 251555, you get updates about successful rates. So a couple reasons. ones were like 10 women rescued in India or five, five girls rescued in South America for boys rescued in Thailand. That was really exciting when for 15 year old boys we just rescued. So that's really, really excited to get those texts.
Tim Buxton
Oh, that's awesome. Well, make sure you guys do that. Yeah. And, David, thanks again. For your time, man. It was good catching up and chatting. And we'll hopefully get to do it again soon.
Tim Buxton
Thanks for listening to this episode of justice matters. I'd like to take this time to thank my audio visual engineer, Joe se B auto for your help in producing the show. I'd also like to shout out to the Patreon community that financially supports this podcast. Guys, thank you so much for your support, you can join them simply by going to patreon.com forward slash justice matters. Where a simple donation of $5 a month, you can become part of the Patreon community and get access to behind the scenes content and extras that are share just with you. Lastly, there's another really important way that you can help support the podcast and that simply by writing it or leaving a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Maybe by subscribing on YouTube. Yes, we are a video podcast as well. Guys, thank you so much for listening in to this episode of justice matters. Please come again soon. Can't wait to share more episodes with you. I'm your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening
