Episode 16: Stu G (Part 2) — Why God is on the Side of the Widow, Orphan, Stranger & Oppressed

In Part 2 of my conversation with Stu G we talk about how to engage with people that are different to you. For too long we have been taught to just tolerate each other, but Stu shares what he has learnt over the years on how engagement is  more powerful than tolerance. We also continue to explore the central theme of justice and how it pulsates through the life and words of Jesus and challenge us today to live a life that seeks justice in our own world. 

Stu G is a guitarist, songwriter, producer and author. Stu is best known as the guitarist for the British band Delirious?, who, for nearly two decades, penned many of the best-known worship songs in modern Christendom. He was also a member of the distinguished CompassionArt songwriters collective, which also boasted heavy-hitters Paul Baloche, Darlene Zschech, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Israel Houghton. 

Like countless wannabe rockstars, Stu G’s journey as a professional musician began in his bedroom, learning songs of his favorite bands - Queen, Rush, The Police, and Led Zeppelin. After studying at London’s Guitar Institute, he formed the Stuart David band, lighting up the London club scene in the late ’80s, before rebranding himself as The Treasure Park. 

Stu quickly emerged as a sought-after session guitarist, which eventually led him to a young Martin Smith, who was leading worship at youth outreach called “Cutting Edge”. The band changed its name to Delirious?, and after seventeen years and several world tours, they singlehandedly reinvented church music and the Christian entertainment-meets-worship experience. 

When not touring with Michael W. Smith, Stu is writing, recording, speaking, leading worship and working with JHS on a custom line of guitar pedals.

Stu lives in Nashville with his wife Karen and is always discovering new ways to express the truths he holds on to. To learn more about The Beatitudes Project visit www.thebeatitudesproject.com. You can also follow Stu on Instagram and Twitter @stugio.

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Full Transcript

Stu G  
Sometimes, Christians that are involved with some form of justice work are kind of seen as really progressive or something at the minute, you know, conservative folks, you know, and yet, if we get truly conservative and go back to the Old Testament law, we just see that God has always been on the side of the widow and the orphan. And the stranger and the oppressed. You know, and and so it runs through the law of Moses and with Jesus kind of readdressing, given his like State of the Union speech, if you like, on the Sermon on the Mount, you know, it kind of invites us into that way of life again, where we have to take care of human beings that are made in the image of God as well.

Tim Buxton 
You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs. Well, welcome back to part two of my conversation with Stu Garrard, he is the lead guitarist for the famous band Delirious? This was a band that I grew up on, I love them to highlight really to be able to talk with Stu. Now in part one, we talked about the Beatitudes Project that he founded in this episode though however, we pick things out when Stu and I talking about how to engage with how to serve and understand and learn from those that are different to us, we discuss issues of interfaith dialogue. And really, we really go into our own personal experiences, guys, it really was a highlight to have Stu on the podcast, and I'm just so thankful that I get to share my conversation that I had with him with you

Tim Buxton 
I was getting in there getting in the flow this morning knowing I was coming in early this morning to chat with you. And I was listening to the... I kind of thought what kind of theme do I want to kind of go into work in, and I was listening to the troublemakers section where you've got Propaganda and also Martin Smith kind of doing that kind of piece. And, you know, I get that edgy justice kinda, you know, hat on you know, like, we're gonna we're gonna talk about... Some of this stuff, as we can see, you've got to get your hands dirty. justice work is is more than just ads advocacy in in one sence, it's a lifestyle, and it requires it requires you I think to kind of put the gloves on, get get down and dirty and do some hard work and digging. I think right now we're finding I'm finding that there's a lot of that hard work and digging, for me personally, and maybe I'd like to get some of your reflections on this as been in this realm of actually, how am I colluding? How am I part of the systems that are in place in our society, which are being kind of brought into light and rightly so right now? How am I... and I love how throughout even the album, the album, you've got these interludes of Listen, listen, listen. Because, you know, there are this, we can see injustice, and we cannot want to just jump on and get on the side that we think is fighting right, and get into it. But yeah, those moments of maybe the hard work, the troublemaking needs to kind of really happened in reflection internally first, I think before we can go out is what's this season been like for you? What, you know, we got a lot of we got just so much pain in our society. And even now, in the West, we've seen it in, you know, I've seen it in Iraq up front, the worst that you can see. But right now, it's kind of confronting all of us in some real, visceral ways. What's it been like for you reflecting on the season that we're at right now? 

Stu G 
Yeah. You know, I have a lot of friends on both sides of the spectrum. And, so it's a very conflicting time at times, because the noise that comes from our screens into our brains is huge. And filtered leaves you thinking, Well, what? Yeah, like, what can I? Should I say something? Or should I not? Like, when is it time to speak up? When is it time to stay quiet? And, yeah, gosh, I mean, it's very difficult to know how to be. And so, you know, do people want my opinions? Or do they want to see, to see me living life differently? And so I think that that's where I'm going, is that how we live? And how we love, like, is, is the greatest apologetic, you know, we can make so much noise and be full of knowledge. But are we actually living any different? So that's been the challenge for me is how do I stay? How do I stay connected to, to the things that matter to me in terms of the justice work, or the advocacy, advocacy, because, you know, with the Beatitudes Project, for instance, you know, you've potentially got more than eight kind of things that you could be doing. Like, honestly, that'd be too much. You know, one of the one of the big things for me, in the project that I haven't mentioned yet, is about interfaith dialogue. So, you know, when it came to the meek chapter, we classically, you know, meekness has been viewed as a virtue in terms of like, well, it's perhaps when you have power under control, and and you're kind of more humble, right. But we wanted to look at it a little bit differently, and say, well, what about those that have been humbled? Or humiliated? Like, what about the people who have been trodden in the, you know, what about the people who've had power taken away from them? And one of my great friends in the project is a guy called Rabbi Joseph edelheit. And I spent some time with him and in conversation with him. And, uh, we came up with this phrase of meekness as those whose presence is ignored. And wow, that's, yeah, it's home. Yeah. Yeah, those whose presence is ignored. So in our living in the south, Southern States of America, there's obviously there's the race conversation, right. And so I spent time with the African American community in Franklin, descendants of slaves, you know, as a white English man, like, you can't get any more white than me, honestly. So I was, you know, what, I didn't know what life was like. For for those friends and, and then I spent time with religious Muslims. What's it like growing up in America, in the age of ISIS, and in the post 911, you know, and they're like, hot topics, right? But people whose presence we ignore, could be the elderly neighbor. Like, what about the the elderly? What about the mentally handicapped or the, the physically disabled? And, you know, we know so many people. So that is one area of what I discovered when I was doing the Beatitudes project that is really important to me. And I want to make sure that I'm carrying on with some interfaith dialogue, you know, when my first when my first instinct isn't, I need to convert anyone. But my first instinct is how, how can I be a good neighbor? And what does that look like? You know, a good neighbor, when someone moves into their house, will not door and and say is there any Anything you need? You know, would you like coffee while you're moving in? You know, or something like that, right? And a neighbor doesn't say you're going to hell.

Tim Buxton
Right? No, they don't. Not a good one that's not going to get things off to a good start.

Stu G  
That's right. So it's informed, the project has informed my "meet me at this time" into wanting to stay, stay in touch with the things that have been important to me along the journey like interfaith dialogue. Like my friend, Shane Claiborne, who is an activist and a preacher, pastor and author, and what have you, I stay in touch with him regularly. And, you know, he tries to get me into all kinds of good trouble. And you know, there's some things that I can say yesterday, there's some things that my immigration lawyer wouldn't like. So

Tim Buxton 
Totally. I can get that tension, I'm sure. Yeah. Your wife maybe as well.

Stu G  
That's right. Yeah.

Tim Buxton 
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Tim Buxton 
Hey, well, you brought up something really important, which is this idea of how do we how do we treat the other? The different? Not just obviously the meek and the circumstances and their experiences in a particular way, in their powerlessness. The way they're ignored and overlooked. But the other in general, like you said, those that are just have a different faith and belief system or have experienced... I mean that, I think that's a profound... well, it's a really important, important thing that we really address right now, how do we treat people that are different to us? How do we listen to someone whose views or ideas about God or ideas about the suffering and the pain and issues that that are really important to everyday life? Just, you know, how do we listen to people? How do we treat the other? I think it's really, really important thing.

Stu G  
Yeah, you know, I think that it takes a little bit of risk, you know, and it, it takes effort on our part, to go towards the people who perhaps we don't know, more haven't spent time with, or we don't know, this story, you know, it's not just about them coming to us to help us understand, you know, we have a go meet them. And so there's real effort there. And then, you know, the idea of dialogue. So, this is another Rabbi Joseph thing. He talks about "engagement is greater than tolerance".

Tim Buxton 
Oh I like that. Oh, man, you've said some great little one liners.

Stu G  
Well, they're not mine. I just remember them. But, um, the, you know, the, the idea that because even the sound of the word tolerant is kind of harsh. You know, I tolerate you. 

Tim Buxton 
Yeah. I'll put up with you. 

Stu G  

You know, yeah, I'll put up with you, you know, like engagement is an he has a great example. So he started a orphanage in rural India. For kids who were all orphaned by HIV, and am HIV positive themselves. So they had to have clean water to take their anti retroviral drugs. He had clean water in rural India is very difficult pipeline.

Tim Buxton 
Wow.

Stu G  
Yeah. So he was doing a talk at he was presenting a paper at Oxford University, and on science and religion. And his thing was,

Stu G  
You know, forget what we disagree about.

Stu G  
Here's what I need. I need clean water in rural India, will you help me as a scientist, you know, really helped me do that. And that's an example of like, how do we engage rather than, you know, tolerate someone over there doing their thing? You know? And so, you know, what, which is why we asked the question, what does it mean to listen right at the beginning? Yeah. Because I love you know, until we hear people, until we hear people's stories, it's very difficult to put a human face on our neighbor, you know, their, their justice to cystic up until that point, you know, or someone that we see in the news? Yeah. And for instance, that with the Muslim conversation, I know that a lot of people are very wary, or the Muslim faith, and it just comes from what's portrayed on TV and on new screens about ISIS or whatever, or 9-11. You know, and we forget that there, that it is currently the fastest growing religion in the world. And, you know, if we were, if it was a religious war, the whole world would be at war. Right there, we forget that there are people who just want to live in peace. Yeah. And and want to look after their families. Yeah, you know,

Tim Buxton 
Oh, you make me think of my neighbors in Iraq? Mm. Yeah. 99% of them. Muslim. They were our closest friends, they took care of us. They protected us, they made meals for us invited us into their home, I mean, you probably will not get better hospitality and in love, and here I am, you know, my wife and I, my wife's from New York, I'm from Australia, but we both held American passports in in in a country that had in you know, it from their perspective, whether it be on their behalf or not had invaded and had and and involved in a very in a military way. And yet, their love and graciousness and kindness towards us. Yeah. was nothing but mind boggling, really. And yeah, I think you're right, when it's amazing. That's the story. That's what needs to make the news feed. That's what needs to kind of be filling our hearts. And I think what happens is, is when when we do encounter the other or the different that we've maybe been taught to be afraid of, we double down, right, like you said, instead of, you know, we've doubled down at defences of why we ride and why we're this or instead of like you said, we've got to push out and engage. We've got to step forward, maybe just into the living room and have a cup of tea. Talk about football or something. And realize, 

Stu G  

Yeah, that's right.. 

Tim Buxton 

You know, that yet, like you said, we've all got the same dreams and aspirations for our families to live in peace to to get an education to follow their dreams. It's, it's beautiful. And again, that idea of listening that idea of going first to learn. We have we have values for the charity, I started here in Australia, You Belong, which is what this podcast is associated with. And, and the first values are we unconditionally love, right? It's a lot of 'L's in the values. So there's no strings attached. There's no agenda to this love. It's just unconditional love and elaborate hospitality. And then it's, we want to listen. We just want to have a posture of of just listening to their stories, listening to their experiences. As you know, these are families that have experienced incredible trauma, torture, suffering, loss, grief, pain, trying to start their life again, they need to be listened and in that process, I need to learn, not just learn about their stories, but learn from them with the posture humility that actually I've got something to learn from you. Yeah, the minute we we think, again, we get into this double down, how can I get them to think what I think? Or how about we first just, yeah, have the humility to say maybe there's something you've got to teach me. I mean, it's, it's, it's sad that we that it's, it's become such a difficult posture to take these days. But I think it's Yeah, it's so important and just etched again in, in, in this idea of, of the Beatitudes the 'upside down, back to front' way. 

Stu G  
Yeah, no, that's right. And I think, you know, sometimes, Christians that are involved with some form of justice work, are kind of seen as really progressive or something at the minute, you know, conservative folks, you know, and yet, if we get truly conservative, and go back to the Old Testament law, we just see that God has always been on the side of the widow and the orphan, and the stranger and the oppressed. You know, and so it runs through the law of Moses and, and with Jesus kind of readdressing, given his like, State of the Union speech, if you like, on theSermon on the Mount, you know, it kind of invites us into that way of life again, where, where we have to take care of human beings that are made in the image of God as well.

Tim Buxton 
Now, I feel like we're just getting getting started, stay, I feel like we could go back and forth, and just hash this out. I love though, that there are some really, really good resources that people who want to continue this dialogue beyond the podcast can actually can actually get into. Is there Yeah. You know, so you've got the e-course. And the book, the film, the album.

Stu G  
Yes. So yeah, you know, like, yes, book, film, album, artwork, podcast. e-course. And everything is on the e-course. So you don't need to go to one place which is..

Tim Buxton 
Really?

Stu G  
www.thebeatitudesproject.com. And everything is there. You can stream the music and the albums at your normal kind of streaming services, but everything is on, like the film and the book and everything is up on the e-course.

Stu G  
Oh, man, that that sounds that sounds phenomenal. there any more like final thoughts or things that kind of come to your mind? You know, that's been on your mind lately that you want to share or?

Stu G  
Yeah, yeah, actually, you know, I think that we are spending a lot of time kind of being confronted by all kinds of different news. And it's very easy to be saying, well, certainly as a follower of Jesus, to say, Well, you know, it would be great if my leader or my government, you know, if would model this lifestyle of Jesus, like, we'd be great if they, if they changed and did this. And then you can kind of take it a step down and say, well, it'd be great if my pastor or my church leader or my local mayor, or something like what if they, they followed this way of living? That is that lines up with this upside down way of living in the Sermon on the Mount. But then I think the most important question is to say, Well, what about me? Yeah, you know what, I love that What? What if I changed? Like, what if I lived a certain way that was full of empathy, and full of compassion, and full of love for neighbor where I was actually hungry and thirsty, to see righteousness and justice break out, in, in my home, and in my, in my online life, you know, or in my town? And you know, because I think that, everyone if you had that conversation with them, everybody wants to make a change. Everybody wants to do some good in the world.

Tim Buxton 
Yeah, yeah. 

Stu G  
But we just, we just don't know where to start. And so I think that some of the keys in the Beatitudes and in the Beatitudes Project can actually help us find an on ramp into live in a different way. That's that's what I would say is what? How do we actually live differently and not just put that onto everybody else

Tim Buxton 
That.  Well said, Stu. It reminds me this week by the time this probably goes to airs probably going to be a few weeks. But reminds me of a conversation I had with my wife. And, and we, we sat down and we like what, we've just moved into a new neighborhood here in Australia. And, you know, we've got this work that that is in another community, another town -- in Toowoomba, a couple hours away that are helping these refugee families that were a part of, but I thought what am I doing in my street in my neighborhood, like, can I get it down, even zone it down. And so we sat down, and we're organizing a street party, to bring everyone on our street. I mean, we've, we've come to this neighborhood, and we're fortunate to have like a bit of a kind of cul-de-sac kind of street community and you just find that you just, you're waving to people all the time. And you rarely get the opportunity to really sit down and put this into practice in a smaller kind of community as you just your own street that you live on. And so we're we're really looking forward to get in the barbecue out, thrown making some tacos... some sausages in bread and bringing everyone together, bring a plate, and I'm looking forward to the conversations that we're going to have together. Yeah, you know, just out on the street kids playing, talking. And realize that, hey, we didn't choose who we got, who our neighbors were. And we've probably all got lots of different stories and backgrounds. But you know, I think even you know, to put into practice something like what... are my expectations for other people out there to be making all these changes, but how can I do it in my, my sphere, my world. They're the real practical, little things that are really important. So we'll see how that goes. Hopefully, hopefully, it kicks off ok.

Stu G  
That's great, I love that. 

Stu G  
But Stu, it's been great. I've got one one more question. Yeah. Before we actually, if you don't mind, I'll take five minutes on the end for a bit of a bonus round quickfire questions that I give to Patreon guests. So you might get that if you're listening to this right now, unless you're a Patreon. But the last question I have for you is I want to finish on a positive. What? Like you're, you're married? How many years have you been married now for Stu?

Stu G  
36 years, believe it or not.

Tim Buxton 
You must be a grandfather by now. Right?

Stu G  
Yeah. I've got two daughters who are grown up and one of them is married. And they have children. We've got two little grandchildren, five years old, and year and a half. Yeah. And yep, they're amazing girls. So loving life. And so we've recently moved house and so I've got a studio in the basement, which is where I'm here sitting now. So I spend time writing songs and playing guitar. Different people here. Yeah. When in an non-COVID world, I tour as Michael W. Smith's guitar player. So we talk all over the country and all over the world. Yeah. doing that and I love that. You know, if we just go heading  back full circle to Delirious? You know, how I approach my life now is that when I have an opportunity to get on a bus or a an airport situation where we're flying, and I'm you know, going to be able to play guitar, I'm just like a little kid in a candy store again, I love it. I love it I because I thought it was I thought it was over at one point and and so I'm so grateful to be able to still do that.

Tim Buxton
Wow, that's so that's so cool. And I love watching you on Instagram your your little behind the scenes guitar kind of licks that you show and yeah, different ways you take us behind the scenes and some of you older stuff and some of your newer stuff, it's really, really coo.  But as you're kind of looking, right, so you're on this, you're on the horizon, you look looking forward, you're looking at the world that your grandchildren are going to grow up in, and what gives you hope? In this, even in the midst of, there's a lot of injustice, and we really need to sit with the suffering and the poor and the pain as we've been talking about. But what gives you what gives you hope, as you look forward?

Stu G  
Ahh. Humanity gives me hope. I think that human beings are just the most amazing things on the planet. And I know there's a lot of evil being done. But I kind of think that before Original Sin, there was Original Grace, and I think that the, I think humans are essentially good. And I think that we can all dig and find goodness. So like, for instance,  with our grandchildren. There are moments that people ask me, What is it? What is it about having grandchildren that is great, and I would say, without hesitation, that it's the amount of joy they bring. And they haven't learnt that, you know, they just are, they're just kids, you know. And so, if we can get in touch with the thing that makes us kids, you know, as we get older, like the naivity and the fun, and the honesty. You know, kids give me hope. Wow.

Tim Buxton 
Thank you, Stu. Ah, this has been so much fun. Thank you for sharing. 

Stu G  
Oh, it's great. Thank you for your work.

Tim Buxton 
Thank you. Well, it's what gives us purpose, like you were saying earlier, right? It gives that sense of purpose and meaning and joy. And it takes everyone, it's wonderful. Thank you so much Stu.

Stu G  
Alright. Thank you.

Tim Buxton 
And so that wraps up our 2-part conversation with Stu G from Delirious?. Now, for me, it was a highlight to have Stu on the podcast. As a kid growing up, Delirious? was one of my favorite bands. And so it was just amazing to be able to talk with him. And we do have more of a conversation that is only accessible if you become a Patreon of the show. Now that's just becoming a supporter, financially. And you can do that for as little as $5 a month, you can support the show and get access to all this behind the scenes content and bonus episodes with all of the guests. Just go to patreon.com forward slash justice matters. And you can learn more about how you can do that. I also want to let you know as well, that any moment now, I will be jumping out of a plane for You Belong. Now we are doing a fundraising event. And we've got stacks of people that are gonna be jumping out of planes to raise much needed and important funds for the work of you belong in helping refugees to integrate and thrive here in Australia. And if you head over to mycause.com.au, you can learn how you can be a part of of sponsoring myself or anybody on the team, we've got refugees, we've got a 12 year old girl, we've got other team members of  You Belong, jumping out, get behind somebody and help us raise the funds that we need to continue to incredible work we're so proud of doing. Now we get to the point in time, the podcast where I like to thank those who make it possible. And I'd like to start by thanking those that provide the music now. That's John Ardt and David Gungor. They're known as the brilliance. And they give us the music that we use on this podcast. Thanks, guys. As always, I like to thank Jose Biotto, who is the audio visual engineer who does an incredible job. He is a master, I have to tell you, and I wouldn't have this show if it wasn't for him editing, and filming, and doing all the fun audio stuff that I know nothing about. And lastly, if you're enjoying listening to this podcast, guys, would you do us a huge favour and help us by rating it? Wherever you're listening. You can give us five stars on Apple podcasts or you can follow us and subscribe to us on YouTube. Spread the word. We love doing this. And we want to have more conversations and we want to still be able to do it and let us know by leaving a comment as well. Or a review. We want to know ways that we could improve. Guys, let us know that you're enjoying it and we'd really appreciate it. Now it's time for me to sign off, guys join me for another episode of Justice Matters. For now, though, I'm your host, Tim Buxton and thank you so much for listening.