Episode 15: Stu G (Part 1) — Life After Delirious? & Pursuing Justice Through The Beatitudes
Stu G is a guitarist, songwriter, producer and author. Stu is best known as the guitarist for the British band Delirious?, who, for nearly two decades, penned many of the best-known worship songs in modern Christendom. He was also a member of the distinguished CompassionArt songwriters collective, which also boasted heavy-hitters Paul Baloche, Darlene Zschech, Steven Curtis Chapman, and Israel Houghton.
Like countless wannabe rockstars, Stu G’s journey as a professional musician began in his bedroom, learning songs of his favorite bands - Queen, Rush, The Police, and Led Zeppelin. After studying at London’s Guitar Institute, he formed the Stuart David band, lighting up the London club scene in the late ’80s, before rebranding himself as The Treasure Park.
Stu quickly emerged as a sought-after session guitarist, which eventually led him to a young Martin Smith, who was leading worship at youth outreach called “Cutting Edge”. The band changed its name to Delirious?, and after seventeen years and several world tours, they singlehandedly reinvented church music and the Christian entertainment-meets-worship experience.
When not touring with Michael W. Smith, Stu is writing, recording, speaking, leading worship and working with JHS on a custom line of guitar pedals.
In this episode, Stu & I take a deep dive into his latest work called The Beatitudes Project, which is an invitation to transformation - inspired by the words of Jesus in Matthew 5, through stories, music, and art. In particular, we explore the central theme of justice and how it pulsates through the life and words of Jesus and challenge us today to live a life that seeks justice in our own world.
Stu lives in Nashville with his wife Karen and is always discovering new ways to express the truths he holds on to. To learn more about The Beatitudes Project visit www.thebeatitudesproject.com. You can also follow Stu on Instagram and Twitter @stugio.
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Full Transcript
Stu G
It was more than the music, you know, it felt like the people that would come to the concerts that would buy the music that would kind of come to the Cutting Edge events back in the day. It felt somehow, like more of a movement than a band. And, and so, and I think that, I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but it felt like everyone that was coming to those concerts and being involved. It felt like they were part of the band. You know, I think they felt like that, you know, so like when we went on tour with Bon Jovi, they felt like they were on tour with Bon Jovi and came to those shows and and we wouldn't play anything different. We just played "My Glorious" and "History Maker" and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, so that's what I miss about it that that sort of bigger picture of like a movement.
Tim Buxton
You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.
Tim Buxton
Stu. It is so good to get you on the podcast. Thanks for Zoomin, Skyping in to this mate. All the way from Nashville, Tennessee.
Stu G
Yeah. Well, thank you. It's great to catch up with you again. And I'm looking forward to this very much.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. So you're not you're not in Great Britain. Most people, obviously. know you and your accent gives you away straight off the bat. Yeah, but Nashville is home, now. How long have you been in Nashville for?
Stu G
We've been here for 10 years, believe it or not 10 years this year. And yeah, it's been quite a move. But we really love it. Yeah. And yeah, we we really enjoy it here. It was a it was a good next step after Delirious? finished. You know, Nashville is known as Music City. And I didn't want to hang the guitar up yet. And so I've come here and it's been good to us.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Well, you certainly haven't done that. And we'll be talking about some of your own projects, as well as you know, the, the ways you've been collaborating with other, you know, artists over over the American on the American shores there. But we met back, Stu here at a justice conference fittingly for this, this episode episode and this podcast, Justice Matters. You know, that's where we met at this conference in Chicago. In fact, run by a couple at the time Mark and Vicki Reddy, they were heading things up another couple of Aussie's whom I'm sure you know. And yeah, actually, they're from the Sunny Coast. will spend a lot of time on the Sunshine Coast, which is really just close to where, to where I am and a lot of my family lives. So anyways, we were there, blue in the green room backstage. And yeah, I just remember sitting at one of those roundtables and just hearing for the first time about what you've been up to the Beatitudes project and obviously, sharing with you a bit about at the time I was living in northern Northern Iraq, in the Kurdistan Region. Yeah. And you had a heart for that, I remember? Yeah, that was that was a for me, it was just wonderful to get to know you, as an as a kid who grew up in youth group, and I've probably told you this when I was sitting at the table, you know, Delirious? was definitely a top three band for me. And I can remember I can remember vividly and I know you, you probably hear this all the time, but I'm sure it doesn't get old. To hear the way the music that you've been a part of releasing to the world is has had such a profound influence and has on my life, remember, just days on it would just be on repeat the Cutting Edge ones, that was kind of what really hooked me in and obviously, you guys went on to produce some, you know, some, some great other albums, but those early days, that music really, really struck a chord in my heart, and I know how to, you know, real big impact on me and my pursuit of following Jesus and the Jesus way, say, Thanks for that stay. I really, again, appreciate thank you for saying that.
Stu G
Oh, thanks so much. Yeah, it, it never gets old, as you say, to hear that from people and I'm so grateful to have been a part of it. And and I love hearing, you know, people's words, I was talking to someone yesterday, and they were saying how the album world server with the sounds, majesty and rain down on there, like that, they still listen to that nowadays. And I it's so encouraging because, you know, when you are a part of something like that, and it finishes, it can leave quite a quite a hole in your life, you know, and, and so it's been great to, to hear from folks on on what those what we did, how much it means to them.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Like you mentioned now, what? How many? How many years? I mean, it would have been what was it? 17 years? That you were part of Delirious? Well, yeah,
Stu G
Yes. So that? No, so 17 years was the time from when the first cutting edge event happened in the end of delirious in 2009. Right. So. And I was involved. I wasn't involved right at the very beginning, but most of it I was at least 16 years or so. Yeah.
Tim Buxton
My goodness. I can imagine. Yeah, so what so tell me what it felt like when? Well, first of all, can you take me back to what what it felt like when you're in the midst of it all? And you were, you know, what was it? What was it? Like, I mean, to be Stu G, I saw you guys in New York at one of your concerts had of, you know, obviously followed us as a faraway fan, and as well as, what was it like being a part of such a, yeah, such an influential Christian music band.
Stu G
It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of a lot of work, and a lot of being away, you know, I know that you know, what that's like to have a job that takes you away from home. So, but it has this kind of sense of purpose to it, this extraordinary sense of vision and unity and passion. Like, you know, there was five of us in the band. And, you know, the longer life goes on, the more you realize that it just doesn't happen very often. You know, there's kind of God smiling on something, and, and, you know, raising it up in such a way. And, you know, people would say, we want to do what you do, and, and we were like, well, we don't know how we did it. You know, it's like, it's just an obedience and hard work and yeah, you just create an environment for God to move and, and, and try and get in the way as least as possible, you know, yes. But anyway, that was a it was extraordinary, really amazing times. I I'm not sure that you know the the entire story when you are in it. Hmm. You know, you don't really have the outside view. So sometimes it can feel quite mundane and a drag. But, you know, the idea of like getting on a plane or getting in a bus and showing up and playing music to thousands of people is extraordinary. It was what an extraordinary thing to be able to do. And so I have incredibly fond memories of all that time.
Tim Buxton
Wow, is there any talks of a ever reunion? Has it come up from time to time? Or? You guys? Wait.
Stu G
Yeah, I don't know. You know, we I'm in contact with Martin. pretty regularly. Yeah. And so we chat and we, you know, cheer each other on? Yeah. And I guess, you know, I no one's saying no, it will never happen. But that, you know, there's not really any plans yet. But, you know, with we're in touch and love... obviously, we we love each other and have just so much respect for what everyone's doing.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. So obviously, my next question was going to be do miss it. And I think, I think, yeah,
Stu G
Yeah, absolutely. You know, it was such a huge part of our lives. And so just speaking personally, it was a huge part of my life. And it happened at, you know, probably a time for me, that was the peak of my life, if you like, you know, it's like, you know, if I was a sportsman that would have been David Beckham in his 20s, you know, he was that, so it kind of hit a great time for me, and the family was young. And so we were able to actually once a year travel with the families. And so we'd come to America for a couple of weeks, couple of three weeks, and, you know, kind of involve everyone, it was just a dream situation, honestly. So, yeah, I do miss it a lot. I'll tell you what I miss about it. Yeah. Is the is standing alongside Martin at the front of the stage. And yes, it is about the music and what have you, but it was more than the music, you know, it felt like the people that would come to the concerts that would buy the music that would kind of come to the cutting edge events back in the day. It felt somehow, like more of a movement than a band. And, and so and I think that, I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but it felt like everyone that was coming to those concerts and being involved. It felt like they were part of the band. You know, I think they felt like that, you know, so like, when we went on tour with Bon Jovi, they felt like they were on tour with Bon Jovi and came to those shows and, and we we wouldn't play anything different. We just played my glorious in history maker and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, so that's what I miss about it, that that sort of bigger picture of like a movement. And then within that, you know, we didn't have we own our own record label and production and publishing and what have you. So there was no one telling us that about what we could write and what we couldn't write, you know, so that was fun. I missed that. You know,
Tim Buxton
was it Furious? Records. Is that what it was Furious?
Tim Buxton
Yeah, that's right
Tim Buxton
Now I remember
Stu G
And that was a joke because... the name was a joke because no one was angry or furious about the other record labels were just so flummoxed as to why we wouldn't sign with them. Yeah, you know, we just want to keep everything ourselves and do everything ourselves and, and so that was just a joke. Yeah. Yeah, they weren't really angry but I think they were a bit bemused.
Tim Buxton
That's gold I love that. Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like in a way though that element of of it being a movement of a being somewhat organic and and and you could feel it in the record you could feel it in in for me at least. I think that's what was so easy to put. Put the the especially for me Cutting Edge One and Two, just put those tracks on repeat. It was just like, yeah, you were brought into something different than just listening t.. well this is a great track in and of itself, and this is a great song that felt like something could be more. Yeah. integrated and whole. Yeah, it was it was great. Yeah.
Stu G
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, something that I'm grateful about for that time was how it introduced us to the the idea of, of justice work. So, you know, in the traveling and playing and leading worship and releasing records, you know, every now and then we'd get the chance to travel to somewhere like India, or Cambodia or Brazil, South Africa, you know, countries where you had had the brilliant opportunity to go and visit the most amazing people who live in extreme poverty or are struggling to survive in one way or another, you know, and so, we had the chance to have our eyes opened to what was going on in the world.
Tim Buxton
Wow. Well, I mean, do you think that then moving into like some of this, the work that you've been dedicated to, personally, lately? How has that influenced what and we can we can kind of pivot to a bit more about your project, the Beatitudes Project? How is that kind of those maybe days? Or how has Delirious then, and that season influenced the work that you're doing now, more specifically, and maybe you could explain? I mean, I remember getting what was after we met with you back in that green room, I remember downloading the Beatitudes Project album, and just listening to this beautiful again, it wasn't just an album of this song, this song, you've got the interludes of the, of the spoken word, the prayers of various artists contributing, it's a great, great album, but maybe you could share broader what it's become, and how how those early days have influenced that, yeah.
Stu G
Well, all through the time of delirious. When if we were ever asked to sign a CD, or whatever, and a lot of people would ask you to sign your favorite scripture, you know, yeah, it's kind of a youth group thing, I think. And so it was a tough one for me. But I always used to write Matthew 567 Sermon on the Mount. And as we kind of went on, and that was such an essential piece of Scripture to me, he, the Beatitudes kind of came into focus. And they came into focus, because there was, you know, eight themes, poverty, grief, etc, peacemaking, mercy, you know, all these, all these themes. And I kind of had this idea when delirious was going, I said, let's do a project that's based on the themes in the Beatitudes, you know, it's kind of a themes, you could have eight or ten song album, you know, and just, it'd be cool. It's always good to sing about making peace and always good to sing about being alongside the poor, and, and those that need mercy, you know, and so, we never got around to doing it, you know, but that always stuck with me that idea of doing something with the Beatitudes? Well, then, what happened? Was the band finished. And, you know, we tried to, we did everything we could to finish well. And, and I guess, you know, we were, we had lots of advice, and we were clear was a big deal. You couldn't just take the keys out of a truck, you know, driving at 70 miles an hour and straight away, you know, there's, you know, it was a whole year of like, preparing for this-
Tim Buxton
I'm still getting over it, you know
Stu G
Yeah, we had to have a lot of a lot of, we had to have a lot of tough conversation, you know, we had a lot of staff who felt like it was their thing as well, you know. So anyway, it takes a long time to wind something like that down and and so on the outside, you're kind of trying to deal with that and cope with that. But on the inside, I was like really struggling, you know, like, is, is the what am I going to do is my best work behind me. And in that space, you know, like, the way that people suffer with depression or whatever is different for everybody. And I can't say that that my pain was any worse than anybody else's. You know, there's no kind of league table in that respect, but I'm really struggled with that on the inside, you know, and, and, you know, in that upside down, moment of transition where something finished, and something hadn't yet begun. It was it was not great. And, but even in in that moment, I kind of had this sense that God wasn't very far away, even if I was making some bad decisions, you know. And, the Beatitudes started to come alive for me in a different way. As I started to meet people who somehow embodied those things, I began to feel like a different way of thinking about them for myself. So the idea of blessing, right. You know, we think that we have grown up in church, you have this thing about, you know, bless me, bless this person, or that person, or whatever, you know, or I'm blessed if I need a parking space, and I pray, and I get it, you know, and but the Beatitudes show us where God is like, where God is blessing. And so blessed are the poor in spirit. Now those whose spirits are crushed, those who are grieving, their greatest loss, you know, those who have a poverty of power, like in terms of being meek. And those that hunger and thirst for righteousness and justice. You know that the a lot of translations don't use the word justice, in that hunger and thirst for righteousness. But the word that we get righteousness from the Greek language actually means righteousness and justice. Yeah. And those two words appear all the way through the Old Testament. But in the New Testament, we just see this word righteousness, but that's because the English language,
Tim Buxton
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Stu G
Isn't as good Greek language. Right? And it Wow. And so, like the idea of like, what do you ache for? You know, when you ache for justice, or you ache for something to be put, right, that's wrong, right? For a wrong to be put, right. And you feel like you haven't got any way of doing that. Like, if you don't feel like you can contribute in any way. It's so big, you know, that you can't do anything about it. But you, it's like, I just wish this was different as that ache, they're like that is what the BRT is taught to, like, that's when you are blessed actually, is when you hunger and thirst and you can't do anything about it. Like the Beatitudes, announce that God is on your side, in that a, and that lack and that longing.
Tim Buxton
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Stu G
So, that's I began to understand the Beatitudes like this, and where the blessing is presence. You know, we when life gets turned upside down for us so much. We want a ladder to get out of it. You know, we want a quick way out and a quick fix. Or at least we want certainty and answers. And but God doesn't offer us that he offers us His presence inside the suffering or inside the the poverty of spirit or whatever it is. And and and that's the invitation is like to receive the presence in that like one of the great mysteries of the Christian faith is that we have a co suffering Savior, right like God takes on human form. Hmm. And comes and joins us in the struggle and in the mess and that's a great picture of what blessing looks like in terms of the Beatitudes, like God is on your side in those moments where we get knocked off track And then it goes on to say, you know, Blessed are the merciful for those who receive mercy. So it starts to change a little bit like, so God is on your side as God is present with you when you show mercy. And and you'll receive it says this invitation to, to start to live a different way we start with we, we've received the the the grace if you like, and but it isn't just one way, you know, we're invited to live a different way. Because as we do we receive more you know, and to live with a pure heart, which we talk about as a undivided heart, you know, where your true self is on display for all to see. And we talk about peacemaking. And so, I mean, I'm talking a lot here, so stop me if you need glasses, for peacemaking, I actually went to visit the Holy Land a couple of times, and got to sit on the hill where the Beatitudes are spoken. And I met with Palestinian and Israeli peacemakers, and to ask them, so what is peacemaking? What does it actually look like, in a hotspot of violence, you know, in a situation that is contested in space that is contested? And because I want to learn what it what that means for me back at home, you know, like, in the contested spaces of life. And so, I've learnt from peacemakers in the Holy Land. And, yeah, and then persecution, you know, you're blessed when you are when you're experiencing a pushback. I mean, you must you know, this persecution happening all around the world, you've probably got friends who've been persecuted, you know, and we don't experience it like that in the USA. But what does that mean for us? Because these announcements are for every, every follower of Jesus on a planet, you know, so it means about asking the questions of Who am I colluding with what am i colluding with? Am I colluding with the dominant powers of the world like racism, sex, violence, money, power, war, you know, am I colluding with these things? Or am I swimming upstream against that kind of following this different way to be in the world by have this counterintuitive upside down way of life where I'm hungry for justice, you know, and, and longing to make a change? So, so that I was starting to develop those thoughts. And I started to meet people. And I thought, Okay, so this is about music. I'd like to write songs. And I started to write some songs, I started to write with John Mark-McMillan, and All Sons and Daughters and my friend, Anthony Skinner. And, you know, we, I was on a mission trip, actually, to Ethiopia. And a friend of mine was on there that I hadn't seen for nine years from the UK. And I mean, random meeting, honestly, in the back of a bus in, in Ethiopia. And he's a filmmaker. And he was really fascinated with the conversation we were having around the Beatitudes. And, lo, that we were starting to work on this project. And he said, Well, if it needs to be a film, let me know. Wow. He said, I could be amazing. We could work on this together. I said, Well, actually going in the studio next month, to record three songs. And he said, Well, I'll get someone there. And let's figure out, you know, how are we going to pay for it and all that good stuff. And so it started to become a film as well. A publisher, a book publisher, reached out to me and said, these are great conversations. Have you thought about writing a book? I was like, No. He said, Well, would you think about it? Well, and so that actually spurred me on to find more stories because I was like, well, no one's gonna want to, you know, just hear my version of my journey.
Tim Buxton
So , Stu was this after was this after the album had been produced was it and these other pronouns he came up with this is this is even before you'd even got in the studio.
Stu G
It all kind of happened at once? Well, certainly the film, and the book, and the and the songs. Yeah. And so So, but you know, I wanted to see, I want to find people who somehow embodied these ideas in at so that we could give a 21st century lens on this, these thoughts, because these are ancient words. And these are these are words that perhaps a lot of people learn in Sunday school as kids are shot. You know, and you feel like you've got a handle on it. But there's so much surplus meaning
Tim Buxton
Right and you might not even be from the Christian tradition, and really you confront these words and righteousness and and like you said, they kind of just fly over your head, don't they? But be Yeah, neath it absolutely. Is, is this powerful, relevant truth? Like you're saying that needs to be unearthed and revealed
Stu G
Yes, because, you know, the, the world is hurting at the minute, right. So we're experiencing all this division. And, you know, in America, it's crazy because of the election. And because of, you know, protests and, and, and, you know, Black Lives Matter and racism, and it's just a big, hot pot of division and opinion, and, and the need for empathy and compassion. And for people to love one another, and people to engage across differences
Tim Buxton
To listen, you know,
Stu G
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Buxton
To not be talking and interrupting like I'm doing right now. But to listen. You know, I think we got a showcase of that last night didn't wait like the inability to
Stu G
Right.
Tim Buxton
Talk about Yeah, the most important issues that affect all of us that are that are complicated that. But you have to do it in a way that Yeah, is. Yeah, is mere is mirrored in these words that Jesus talks.
Stu G
That's right, it's, um, I think they give us a way to do it. So, um, you know, a lot of people have trouble with two with a couple of questions, like, Where is God, in the middle of a pandemic, in the middle of suffering in the middle of a disaster, you know, and I think they'll be actors. Show us where God is, like, he's on the side of the poor. You know, he's on the side of those who are grieving. He's, he's with those who are suffering, he's with the people who are suffering, that's where God is. And then, you know, Jesus said on the way, and that's a big stumbling block block to people. And I think the Beatitudes show us the way they show us what the way is, give us clues as to how to live, you know, and that is to be compassionate, empathetic, learn how to listen. And to be where God is, you know, be on the side of the poor and the vulnerable and the oppressed. And, yeah, our lives can be changed forever. In that way. We can learn how to engage with each other with more compassion.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. What I love is what he what Jesus shares in the Beatitudes, he backs up with his life and his action, which actually may us, which actually makes what he shares even more true, if I could say that and even more profound, because it was a life spent for the outcast, spent for the those that had no voice the way he elevated and treated women in that in that society the way, like you said, those that were powerless, whether they be ethnically and racially, on the outside. He brought, he brought in and valued, he, he modeled it in every which way. And I think Yeah, yeah. For me, that's obviously been such a central driver in my own life and the decisions and choices I've made and the you know, knowing Yeah, knowing that I, I have a great responsibility as someone who would identify as someone that follows him, you know,
Stu G
Yeah, that's great. So a couple more things. I'll just give you an example of, of some of the stories and some of the people that I met then so the poverty is spirit. I went to India and because I think that Jesus probably just said, Blessed are the poor. Yeah. And Matthew, who, you know, Matthew, who wrote the gospel, used the language poor in spirit, which does include more broadens the spectrum, which is a very clever thing to do, actually. But yeah, so I wanted to see extreme poverty. Yeah. And I wanted to include that conversation. Yeah. And then I found a man, a guy who's now a friend who had been on Wall Street. He was a hedge fund. guy. Yeah, I don't know what the title job title is. But, you know, multimillionaire, he was making millions of dollars every year. And I asked him, What, what is poverty of spirit look like to a multimillionaire on Wall Street. And he talks about addiction. He talked about the the love of money, actually, as as being a poverty of spirit. And how he told his story about how he ended up actually walking away from his firm, even though they offered him a bonus of $8 million. And he walked away, and he personally started a nonprofit, to help feed the poor in food deserts in California. And so there's his story. And then just a couple more,
Tim Buxton
Yeah, this is great.
Stu G
So obviously, we talked about the peacemakers was in the Holy Land, with Palestinian Israeli peacemakers and their mercy. I talked to a woman who'd been on death row for 27 years. And, and she was guilty of the reason she was there in the first place. But she had a story of in prison being shown mercy, getting herself right with God, and having the opportunity for parole, and actually had parole, and the governor commuted her sentence from a death sentence to life with the possibility of parole. And yeah, so extraordinary story. And then also women who are survivors of prostitution, addiction, and trafficking. That from an organization called thistle farms in Nashville here, I spent time with them, and, and told their stories, wow. As to what mercy looks like, to them, too, so that's the kind of vibe of it so and then with this, the song side of it, like with the women's mercy stories, I actually asked Amy Grant to come and write a song with me. And she said, Yes, and helped me record it. And yes, it kind of happens like that. And then I invited loads of friends, my musician friends to come and collaborate with me. So there's people like Audrey Assad, Matt Maher, John Mark-McMillan, Hillsong United, Martin Smith did one with me, and Amanda Cook. And yeah, there's a whole host of people and like you say, we have some spoken word here, poetry with music on the album, but we have more in the film too. And, yeah, we had artists, two artist friends of mine painted paintings to represent each Beatitude. And then when that was all finished, and we and we made the film, we released the film, I made a study guide for that for small groups and for people to dive dive deeper into it a little bit. And, and now, we got that all put into an online ecourse which has all happened since COVID Hit
Tim Buxton
Oh really
Stu G
Because, yeah, because, you know, I was starting to I thought the plan was that I would get out and do some events and share this message and what have you. And then that just all completely went away. And so a friend suggested that we put everything into an online e course. And so we've built that over COVID over quarantine, and that's all now available. Done a podcast as well. Yeah.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Well, I've enjoyed listening to the podcast, obviously, that you put together. And I'm sure that ecourse for now for a lot of churches or a lot of groups that can't gather physically, I know there's lots of churches here in Australia, and we don't even have an issue at all really, comparatively, at least where I'm from with with COVID at the moment and so but what a great resource for people to be able to, to go that next level dis journey, I guess, with the accompanying you know, music and and the book and film. I mean, that must be must be pretty awesome just to see all these accompanying kind of mediums. Kind of bringing forth this central theme.
Stu G
Yeah, yeah. I love it. It's been a, it's definitely a life work for me. And I hope that it's helpful to people. And yeah, I'm just real, real thrilled to have done it. And I'd love as many people to see it as possible.
Tim Buxton
Well, I hope you enjoyed Part One of my conversation with Stu Garrard, or Stu G, as he's more affectionately known from the band Delirious? But as always, we continue the conversation. And you can hear that by becoming a patron. Now all you have to do is head over to www.patreon.com/justicematters.
