Episode 13: Michael McDonald — Justice & the “Big, Messy” Bible with Mike from the Bible Project
Michael McDonald is Director of Global Focus and Strategic Relationships for The Bible Project, a crowdfunded non-profit creative studio dedicated to communicating a single, powerful message to the world: the Bible is one unified story that leads to Jesus. Celebrated for its captivating, animated YouTube videos outlining and simplifying each book of Scripture, The Bible Project is a fan-driven, fan-funded movement that provides its resources worldwide, free of charge.
Prior to joining The Bible Project, he served for over a decade in more than 15 countries working to improve people’s daily lives, one community at a time. He primarily focused on educational, micro/macro financing projects, conflict resolution, and economic development.
Michael has also led thousands of leaders on more than 200 trips to the Middle East, South East Asia and Africa, and also worked in Iraq, Uganda, Somalia, India, Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia and Haiti. He has also served on a number of boards—including Remember Nhu and Fly Fishing Collaborative—with a focus on ending child sex trafficking as well as working closely with Ugandan Consulate Bob Goff in conflict regions around the world.
A Canadian by birth, his eclectic upbringing and global worldview was nurtured from an early age. At the young age of fourteen, Mike's mom sent him and his younger brother to China [alone] to attended an NGO woman’s conference discussing gender equality.
In addition to owning and operating restaurants in the Portland/Seattle area, Mike spent the good part of two decades as a pastor with Imago Dei Community & Bridgetown Church in Portland. It was there that Mike was instrumental in forming and leading "Hear The Cry" — a local & global justice-focused nonprofit with long term partnerships in 9 countries; Uganda, Zimbabwe, Somalia, Thailand, Myanmar (Burma), Iraq, India and Haiti and Nicaragua.
He lives in Portland, Oregon with his wife Melissa. You can follow him on Instagram @michaeldeanmcdonald & you can learn more about the work of the Bible Project by visiting https://bibleproject.com & their YouTube channel — https://www.youtube.com/user/jointhebibleproject
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Full Transcript
Tim Buxton
Michael McDonald, buddy, friend. How are you doing? Welcome to the Justice Matters podcast.
Michael McDonald
So good Tim, man, it's an honor to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Tim Buxton
Yesh man. We'll we'll we rode through a few old technical difficulties then. But we finally got it going. Your setup on your side is amazing and impressive. Probably because you have to do this quite a bit right?
Michael McDonald
I do this a bit, but it looks more impressive probably than it is. This is just like a projection screen. I bought off Amazon because I'm literally in my garage. So behind me is like my garbage, my recycling.
Tim Buxton
Oh nice, so hopefully it's not garbage day... [crosstalk]
Michael McDonald
Yeah, exactly. I kind of breathe all that in. But COVID kind of made us figure out how to office in weird places. And so my wife's a counselor and needed the office in the house. And so I kind of took took the garage over and built out a little little place to sit.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Well, speaking of speaking of COVID and your lovely wife, how are you guys doing? I know you actually had a bout with COVID. What was that like?
Michael McDonald
I did? Yeah, I got it in March. It was, man, as a healthy young one. Not that young anymore. But as a as a healthy individual. I kind of in the beginning, honestly was like, man, I hope I get COVID when I'm young, and I'll just kind of like work through it and get the antibodies and everything will be, you know, be fine. And now I'm like, dude, there's no, nobody should get this. It is the worst thing on the I mean, for me, I was taken out I had 103 degree fever for nine to 11 days straight. No sleep. had moments where you just thought like you were gonna die. So scary for my family for my wife, you know who is seeing people die in cases of it. So just the emotional toll that it took on our house? Yeah. And then just having to be quarantined for two weeks after, um, we just didn't leave our house for five weeks, you know? And yeah, so yeah, it was it was rough. But it's, you know, not to put a sugar coating on it. It's given me a ton of empathy, though, for individuals that are going through this families that are going through this. It's given me insight into that. And so yeah, I mean, gnarly, but we're on the other end of it, and both doing okay.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, man, you know, and and there's obviously this, this wave of it, we do look at the research and you realize this comes and goes in kind of outbreaks. And so, and I know, the US has gone through a bit one we've had an outbreak in, in in Melbourne, Victoria, which has locked down the whole city again. And so yeah, my heart really does go out to people that have been impacted. Like, personally, I've known a few. You've been one of them. And yeah, nobody ever wishes this thing on anybody. And, man, yeah, we hope hope we can...
Michael McDonald
Especially coming from New York, I'm sure...
Tim Buxton 17:44
Yeah. Oh, my goodness..
Michael McDonald
friends out there. I mean, that's a whole. Yeah, yeah. The impact is so multiple fold, you know.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Well, I was thinking back just the other day when we first met and I don't know if you remember.. of all places we met in this Starbucks fake look alike. Coffee Shop. Opposite
Michael McDonald
Called Barista
Tim Buxton
Called Barista, yeah. And you came, you're living in Portland, the home of Barista, another coffee shop, right?
Michael McDonald
My favorite coffee shop in Portland at the time was Barista I literally went there every day of my life for the last 10 years. So when I showed up in Iraq, and the first place we stopped is a coffee shop called Barista. I just I felt like I was home. I felt like I've found my people. I feel like I'm in the right spot.
Tim Buxton
It was amazing. You and your wife, Bob and Maria, who else was on that? was on that trip Dae was on that trip? That was I think it was Dae, Bob, Maria, me and Melissa, yep. Yeah. So the five of you, we get you from the airport we go to this coffee shop it's right up at the US consulate right, in the part of the of of Erbil which is supposed to be the safest, it's where the consulates are. A lot of the nonprofit NGOs and oil companies have all their headquarters now we live two hours away in the middle of woop woop right on. Right right next to the Iranian border there. But we take you there first thing and you'll have this great experience and and it was great. We sat on the couches and just finally just, you know their first time to meet and chat. The weird thing is though, that very same. You came back a couple years later, or maybe just a year later. On one of your several trips with a team you bought from Portland. Do you remember getting that phone call? So we flew in? Yeah, well, we flew in and we stopped at Barista because we'd also go to that bread shop. That was right, right beside, yes, served like epic Turkish bread. And we stopped there because we took all the teams there cuz it was like my first stop. So I want to get everybody there. The next day we're sitting enjoying a meal and we got a call that Barista had blown up, and the Turkish shop, the day after like if it if we had.. and the consulate. Yeah, if we had flown in just a day later, you know, there's a chance we could have been at that spot. It was very sobering, for sure, Wasn't it?
Michael McDonald
It was also the first team that I think I brought up of just other than myself and my wife. And you know, I took a group of people and friends there. And so it was kind of a yeah, it was a sobering reality for sure.
Tim Buxton
Oh, yeah, we were in a little pizza shop, the mayor of our town calls us and says, are you guys, okay, knowing that we had your team that was coming in. And yeah, they targeted the US consulate ended up blowing up half a block full of buildings, hotel, in particular, this coffee coffee shop was at the center of it. And, and you're right, it it, though, that telling that story may for some listeners think, wow, this is just the most dangerous, craziest place you could live. But it did. It is a sober reminder that you know, there. You know, life is fragile. And there's a lot of people out there that are confused. And think, yeah, that by by making a point like that, that, that I guess that their agenda, whatever their purpose that they're trying to trying to fight for will come to pass. But yeah, it makes me also think about the news I'm getting from Portland right now, which makes it feel like it's a war zone where where? Yeah, and people watch the news and think of Iraq and thinking I must be a war zone. It's Yes, it's my hunch is that It's not the reality. So I'd love for you maybe to talk into that just a little It's a that's a great analogy, because I think that's very, you know, unfortunately, it's that explosion gets the largest megaphone in what's happening in Iraq, in Iraq. But what they don't see is all the other days where you've got kids going to school and families, you know, doing this and dads being dads and moms being moms and people taking care of refugees and mayors that are just, you know, the hearts of gold... I mean, Exactly.
Michael McDonald
They don't hear you don't hear all of that. But you hear about this one explosion and and i would say, but the explosion didn't happen. Yeah, too. So I would say in Portland way. Yeah. It's very similar. The stuff you're seeing on the news is happening. There are people that are peacefully protesting, and they're getting tear gassed in the evening, and they're getting rubber bullets fired at them. And I've got friends that have been down there during these times and witnessed it and been a part of it. And yeah, and so what you are seeing is is is accurate. And not to take away from that. But in the same reality in Iraq, five blocks away, you've got people sitting in a coffee shop, drinking coffee, you've got kids that are you know, in the playground, you've got people going to work and people going home. And so it's
Tim Buxton
It's not the full story
Michael McDonald
It's not, it's not the full story. Portland is still Portland and a lot of ways and there's a part of it, that there's this thing happening and, and, you know, and unfortunately the largest megaphone is is given to the things that's going to be the biggest story, which is some of the violence or some of the fires or what have you. But yeah, there are amazing peaceful protests happening in Portland all day every day for the last, you know, 60 days. Yeah, and those aren't necessarily being talked about. It's it's really this unique hour between 10:30 and 2am where it kind of it gets a little crazy on a five block radius down in downtown Portland, you know, and Portland is so much more than that. And yeah, so yeah, I mean, I'm thankful for the people that are down there. And, and you know, talking about justice and talking about the things that matter. I'm really thankful for that, and my also my heart breaks for Portland where you know, this is becoming our story to people outside of Portland and and, man it's just not it's it's an amazing city with amazing people that care a lot about justice and care a lot about equality and equity and all of that restitution and so,
Tim Buxton
yeah, yeah, I I loved that visit we got to have. Sarah and I were able to, to sneak away one of our trips back to the states while we were living in Iraq, we got to come back and we we left our kids, with Sarah's parents, and we got to come to Portland for a couple days. See the incredible work that you're doing there but also experienced this amazing city. I loved going to the coffee shops get myself a pair of canes you took me to the Nike. The Nike We took you to the campus, you got to see the whole headquarters. Yeah, We met some great people there. Obviously you can't go to Portland and not go to Powells Bookstore and pick up a couple books even had us stay in this such trendy cool little hotel. It felt like I was in an army barracks, but it was it was like, a hip cool army barracks.
Michael McDonald
Oh, we had you stay at Ace didn't we... the Ace Hotel
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah. So much fun
Michael McDonald
It's where all the rock star is come and stay when when they're there. So you were you were living large
Tim Buxton
Man, felt like a rock star, you treated us like one. And that was it's kind of like the case. Anytime you brought a team, whether it was whether it was a team from from a collective group of churches and other extended friends that you have that came over or whether it was when you bring Don Miller and Myles Adcox other like really good friends of yours who I've just been so thankful to know. There's been so you, you always bought so much generosity and kindness to us and thoughtfulness and well Sarah and I and as a family always remember, it was always a favorite. The teams that that came in the folks who visit when when you guys came and we really appreciate that. And I appreciate it at that about you, as well, Mike. Yeah. Well, you guys. I mean, not that you need to hear this necessarily. But I mean, it You were family. That was the thing. I didn't feel like we were just visiting. Yeah, you know, an organization or a place we were visiting family, you know, you It's just the way that you guys welcomed us into your home and your kids. And I mean, I just felt like an uncle to you know, oh, he's amazing kids. And so it it was it's just what we would do for family. So you guys were it was it was so much fun. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful thing that this world can be so big yet you can feel so close and connected with people so far away, Mike. I want to get into a lot of the work that you do. But I always love hearing your story. And I think your journey as well. Obviously, you're a Portland guy. But really more than that you're a global, you're like this global citizen. And I think that has informed not only your ability to connect so well with people all across the world and throughout throughout your life and work as well. I mean, that's just what you do so well. You are the relational master at just bringing people together and connecting people. And doing so in such a great, I think such an empathetic and strategic way. Your story, though, is, is? You know, it's interesting. I mean, when I first heard it, I was just blown away. Do you mind going going and sharing a bit about your life?
Michael McDonald
Sure. Gosh, I can Yeah, I'll try to do in the context of even what we're talking about. Because any of our stories I feel like are, you know, they're ours, and they're, they're all really unique and none of us, you know, get into this world unscathed. And so there's there's history and things there. But it makes us who we are. And my story in being able to reflect and tell it with others has helped me also define Gosh, that's where I learned that or that's where that came from. And, you know, I didn't grew up in Portland, I grew up in a small little ski town up in Canada. So tiny little, you know, under 10,000 person up in the mountains, hippie draft dodging little city. You know, that was my, that was my upbringing. I grew up in a faith paradigm of the high which is a from Iran in the 1850s. And, you know, a lot of persecuted Iranians had moved into Canada to escape persecution, and which is kind of the community that I grew up in. So I, I grew up in a very multicultural Yeah, community, just you know, when we would celebrate together every 19 days at our feast, it was half you know, Persian and, and it would be you know, in different languages and obviously, different foods and wow, that was just growing up. So that was just growing up, that was just normal. That was Tuesday, you know, that was just that kind of life and, and then, and like my mom is a very adventurous wild spirit in that sense, too. She went She graduated high school, she went and moved and lived in caves in the Canary Islands for six months. And then she, when she got married to my stepdad, when I was three, they went on a three month honeymoon to India, and just left us kids back behind. But we were super young, so we don't really remember that. But that was like her, you know, very just seize the day, the world's all open and safe and great. That led to when I was 16.. 15, actually just turning 15. And my brother was 12, my mom sent us to China, to go to a women's conference that was held in 1994. And it was all around the inequality that was happening around the world for women. And so there was 40,000 people there. I was 14 turning 15. And my brother was 12. And she didn't go so she just sent us with an envelope of money, and was just like, your heading to this conference. And we were gone for, you know, month and a half it was over the summertime, it was we're gone for, you know, quite some time. So. So that meant that like I was finding it at 14. And I guess when you're 14, you think you're a lot older than you are looking back now. I'm just like, gosh, so many bad things could have happened. But I mean, we had to find our own place to stay. And we were figuring our own food and we were figuring out everything when we arrived, I lost my brother
Tim Buxton
You lost your brother?
Michael McDonald
Day one first day, like I got onto a bus and everyone kind of piled in behind me and my brother like just got left and took me a few hours to find him and it was right in Beijing. So it's not a small town. Like there's just bazillions of people. Anyways, we're both Okay, everything's fine my brother a huge culture shock and he really suffered for that month and a half but later ended up moving to China for like 10 years and married a gal from there. So he did okay, at the end. Wow. Anyways, the whole point of story is is that that is what when I went to that conference, and most of it was learning about the injustice that's happening to women around the world. So meeting people from Afghanistan and Iran and in all over the place hearing stories of injustice. I think that's what birthed in me this not just desire but this like ingrained heartbeat of what does it look like to bring justice into the world and justice meaning for me, is less the like, the judge legal system and much more, you know, what does righteousness not? What does what does goodness, what does equality. What does like in my own language now in kind of a Jesus centered type way, which is just the faith paradigm that I happen to be a part of? This idea of, like a kingdom of heaven, you know, that kind of stuff. And
Tim Buxton
Like heaven on earth, what does that look like?
Michael McDonald
Heaven on earth. What does that look like? And in how do we be a part of being the vehicle to bring that as images, image bearers, you know, and so, yeah, that was me. So then I was came home that kind of, I think, was the trajectory of where I would go in the future. I ended up going on a like find myself trip when I was 19. I had to get out of dodge. I had a gnarly childhood, I had a, I had goods and bads. I'm actually starting to see the good for the first time actually, but for a long time, I could look back and go, I had a very abusive, stepfather, sexually abusive to a bunch of the kids in the home. You know, mom was very sick at the time. You know, so in that from from my memory, which, you know, is limited. I had to get out as soon as I could. So when I was 17, graduated, got out of dodge as fast as I could. Moved to Calgary which is kind of a bigger city in in Canada I got a job at a clothing store ended up managing that clothing store realized I didn't want to be in a mall for the rest of my life. So I quit and after about a year and a half, went to Turkey on a find myself kind of like what am I doing with my life. That's where I met you know, a person that kind of started teaching me about the ways that Jesus that was my first engagement with that. I then came home ended up getting wanting to go to school so I got a job at a restaurant cuz I thought it was a good way to make money. I found it my very first like father figure mentor in my life, which is this guy lane, who to this day is my, you know, biggest mentor in my life. And that was, you know, 20 years ago. He gave me a restaurant when I was 20 years old to run and then I just kept kind of moving. So I opened up restaurants across the country moved down to Portland, Oregon, actually, to bring the company that we were part of in Canada down to the States. That's what had me moved down here. And I was bouncing between Seattle and Portland quite a bit in the beginning. That was in 2004 And in moving to Portland, I got kind of connected with a church here in town called Imago Dei Community. That's where I met Don Miller, who we brought out to, to Iraq and, and many others, it was kind of a newer church plant in Portland, but have been around for a few years. So a little bit established. And that was the church for me that I was like, I think I want to get rid of doing this restaurant thing and serve the church in some capacity.
Tim Buxton
What was unique about that church, because, you know, it didn't have that. You know, it wasn't, you know, for some people, you know, the image of church might just seemed like, it could it could be a plethora of things. Yeah, what was so unique about Imago Dei, for you? Yeah, for me. So just even in the name like image of God, they really did that in the city. Like they were the first church that I had been a part of where this idea of being unified in what the city is where they're at. So in terms of taking care of the homeless, in terms of, it wasn't just lip service, or this idea that we should do it, it was very much just like, we do that first. And then other things will follow. And it was this embodied lifestyle, kind of, it was very much a lifestyle. And, you know, the pastor Rick, you know, would, is the guy really in Portland with a few others that really would like, sit down with the mayor and ask, instead of being like, Hey, we're the church, and we're going to do this, he would sit down and go, man, what are your biggest needs? What are your biggest? What are the things that like, no one showing up to? How can we serve, you know, you and the city in the best way with no strings attached? Not to, like, I'm not gonna, like tie a Bible to everything that I'm doing. It was just how do we show up and just be the people that you need in the city. And it took a little bit to build a relationship. But once that was done, it was a school system, schools needed help, mentorship, wow, there was a there was a number of things that started coming up, and all of a sudden, it was homelessness, it was refugee care. It was, you know, the big things that the cities was was coming up against, they would actually talk to us about and would, you know, foster care, that was a massive one, that our cities just like, we don't know what to do with foster care. We've got too many kids, and not enough foster parents. And we're like, great, well, we'll answer that call. And not just us, like a bunch of churches, we're going to rally together and not put a church name on it, but just put a this is just us showing up and Imago was very unique and leading the charge in that. Yeah, I it's that sense, where justice isn't, like you were talking about it's not just about being a... though, has aspects of being a protesting advocate or being even that picture I was trying to find, I'm looking at justice images on the website, and you get this gavel and, you know, the hammer and of a judge, and it's like, but I think in in the best and most purest way, it is a lifestyle. It is something that is integrated into your life, it's not a moment or an event or a it is this ongoing process. And you know, when when I see maybe the, the, the mission and vision of any church community, it is to be at the point of needs, wherever they are in the community where there's a whether that need come from a mayor or or a or a school or institutions that make up society as it is wherever there's need, wherever there's hurt, wherever there's pain, wherever there is inequality, wherever there's oppression, wherever there's injustice, yes, that is Yeah, we need to be the church should be people. Yeah. Not just as a, you know, an institution per se, but as the people. Yeah. And, you know, I yeah, that that is what I know, of Imago Dei to be and now a lot of other great churches in in Portland that I got to see and around the world. Yeah. And hopefully, in this moment that we're at more and more churches will realize it's less about the event on Sunday, whether you can gather or not in a big building and it's more about being thrust out into the community.
Michael McDonald
Yeah, so true.
Tim Buxton
Look, speaking of, of that kind of work. You then became part of creating, founding and forming a A justice arm of a collective group of churches known as Hear the Cry, and that was in that role that you had. That was when I first met you, can you talk a little bit about what Hear the Cry is and in particular? Yeah. You know, as especially as it relates to, to me personally and my work with refugees a bit about that great work that you started, yeah. Serving the refugees in your community.
Michael McDonald
Yeah, the heart behind "Here the Cry" was, and I was a part of another church at that point on staff and had the privilege of kind of building building this thing out, which was really this idea comes obviously from it comes from Exodus, that God heard the cry of the people and met those needs. And so this idea was, was very much like, we're connected. Let's hear the cry of people around the world, in our own city and around the world. And can we be a vehicle God to show up in those ways. And, you know, what started just with our church did grow into many other churches that that joined along, because we really wanted to, it wasn't a label, we didn't want to put a label on it. We didn't want to have, you know, when we visit Iraq, if we're going to help build a school, it wasn't about us getting our name on the school. It wasn't about any of that. So we could actually gather so many different types of churches. Yeah. Protestant, Catholic, I mean, whatever, to be a part of this, were just like, Guys, can we show up guys and gals, can we show up and, and really be kind of the wind behind people as opposed to leading this thing. And so that was, that was the heart. Also, that just, it's a, I think a part of discipleship is to learn and understand what it means to bring justice and compassion into these areas. And so instead of just talking about it on Sunday, it's then giving a pathway for people to actually do that. And we did it in our own city, and then also globally, so whatever we did globally, we would do locally, if we're going to care for orphans globally, then we're going to care for orphans locally. So we would do orphan care on a global standpoint. But then we do foster care in our own city. And that way, if people went on some sort of trip, that was two weeks long to Zimbabwe, you don't come home and be like, That was amazing. I'm gonna have to go to Zimbabwe next year, in order to kind of live that out. It's like, no, if you've got a heart to care for orphans, let me introduce you to this foster care system and introduce you to all these orphans in our own city. And what would it look like to become foster parents or respite care, caring for those that are in the DHS and doing all of that? That was the same with anti sex trafficking work that we were doing? If we didn't work globally, we were doing that work locally. So we always had ministries or groups of folks that were doing that on both ends. And then same thing with refugee care. And one thing we found was, for some people, going to Iraq is crazy. You know, that's just there's just no way they're going to do it. They've never met somebody that is, from an Arabic speaking, you know, culture. They've never met somebody, a Kurdish person before anything. So their idea of that is just so crazy. What was awesome is that we could actually go, Well, why not? Why don't you meet with one here important, let me introduce you to an amazing family that I met, you know, months ago, and we would get to take them for lunch. And they get to ask questions and dialogue and interact in a safe, wonderful way. And then afterwards, they're like, that wasn't that scary? Maybe I would go to Iraq with you. And all of a sudden, those people were some of the ones that were coming with me to Iraq. And, and what was so great is that they then when they would come back home, they would be even, they would dive back into that community. And there'd be so much context for these relationships with Kurdish people here in Portland. And I mean, when you had somebody say, I've been to Kurdistan, I mean, my God, those families would just, I mean, it was just like your family, your brother and your drinking tea, your brother, there's just no getting out of it, you're now. And so the texture that would happen with those relationships from a local and global standpoint. And that was a big part. We were doing refugee care globally. And that meant we had if we're going to do it globally, we had to do it locally. And we called a couple other churches that were feeling a similar heartbeat to that imago dei was one of them. One called river West and then from us at Bridgetown and solid rock. And we just kind of created a little thing called refugee care collective is a great gal Megan, who was the very first person in our church 10 years before to raise your hand to help out with refugees in Portland. We're already doing some of this work, but it was on a very small level. And I mean, I remember when I was with you there was like even a warehouse at that point. Was that, was that years later? We did. Yeah. So that was part of building that out. Yeah. So all of a sudden, we had all these churches, not just all of those three, now we had like 50 churches from the city, that were saying, we're gonna meet the needs of refugees in our city. So they were building welcome kits that were specific to age groups, and you know, gender and all that kind of stuff, we would get all of the mattresses that are brand new for their homes, we would help them move in, we'd meet them at the airport. And then we would pair them up with a community that would walk with them, at least for the first year, but hopefully, forever, to really help. I mean, you know, all of this from what you do, but you know, help with everything, like how do you turn light switches on? And how do you pay, you know, for when someone comes to your door and says they need to sell you cable, you don't need to say yes, you know, like you don't have to, there's just so many things they just don't know, in the same way that I wouldn't know if i all of a sudden picked up and move my family to Iraq, which you've done, you know, and yeah, if you don't have friends and people that are walking you through, what does it look like to live here, you would just have... your lost. And so how scary and so that was the Refugee Care Collective was really this idea of can we gather people to really respond to this and actually start having some great conversations around? I mean, at that point, there was so much fear around the Middle East and still is, but I remember this time, specifically, there was Yeah. Around terrorism and around, there was just so much stuff that was being put on this, you know, idea that if refugees come in, you know, everything's and so we we wanted to be a part of that conversation to go. Yeah, that's, that's just not the case.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. No, I mean, and it's it, as is most the case, when you actually do step out of your comfort zone and go to places that you know, that it's different. It's that you grow, you change, you are impacted. I don't think anybody that ever came and visited us while we were living in Iraq, or even even now, in the work that we do helping refugees that are newly settled here in Australia, whoever goes and spends time with them will come away. richer. Like, absolutely blown away, and loved on and in. Yeah, it's, it's just beautiful to see that. That beautiful exchange, that mutual benefit, that mutual connection, that that reaching out to others does, you know, yeah, yeah.
Michael McDonald
Yeah, remember, there's a few folks, but I remember, one was ex military who served in Iraq, and his only, you know, understanding of Iraq was on that end, and, you know, to get to have some conversation with her him and invite him to come and then have him interact in an entirely different way and getting to see, you know, these people that in his mind, were just all enemies, to then go, Oh, my gosh, these are fathers. These are brothers, these are uncles, these are like, men that care about their families. These are women that I mean, it used to see him transform over the course of that time. You know, or people that were very against immigration from a refugee standpoint, like, you know, I've got one dear friend who would just be like, nobody should be allowed in. Yeah. And I brought him to Iraq, you know, I convinced him to come in from him to get to see, you know, the camps that you were, you know, the homes that you were building and the care and it just changed him entirely. Where he just he's not the same, you know, so Yeah, I agree.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Speaking of friends that you bring, I mean, you you are your creative yourself, and they will always some incredibly creative people that that came your buddies, Zach. And yeah, I still am blown away by his, his photography, but but mate, thank you so much for me being able to use it if you're able to jump onto the Justice Matters website, you'll see some amazing black and white photography that is on there and that is actually your work, Mike. And not only am I so grateful that I get to use it and it kind of is very personal for me because these are these are pictures of family members that are like friends for me. And so it's very, very special and I'm thinking of a couple other guys Ian film. Yeah, filmmaker, Ian. But But yes, can you I mean, I'd love for you to talk a bit about that element of your life too. And really how that enables you to express even and tell stories and talk, you know, you know, I think that's Yeah, powerful part of the whole, you know, building bridges and making connections with people something you do so well,
Michael McDonald
Yeah, well, I know for me, I mean, I would never call myself a photographer, I love photography, I. But I would, I would say that I love it from I'm a relationship first kind of guy, I don't think I could be a professional photographer, where I'm just out on the street, or I'm in places where I'm not going to build a connection or relationship where I'm just taking photos, that would be difficult for me, I think, where I, you know, love to be a part of this, when I know that I'm, these are my friends, these people that I care about, these are people that I'm, I'm engaged with, I know them I know their names, I'm sitting with them. And, and that, for me, helps me feel not just comfortable, but feels like there's not this weird exchange of like, I'm taking a photo to get something from them. But more that I'm I'm, I'm taking a photo to capture a moment that I hope is going to be mutually beneficial and loved on and so on. And so, you know, all my time in Iraq, you know, that was that felt like family. And it was Yeah, I feel like I've got a family album of photos that I get to look back and just, you know, remember these moments with these kids and the games and it was just always so yeah, life giving. And then I do think that it's an incredible medium still to this day, to capture a story that has the potential to change things, I think of photos that have changed my life. I remember, a photo was taken by a guy a guy that actually a South African. But it was this photo, and people are gonna remember it. But it was of this kid that was starving at a camp in Africa, believe it was in believe it was in the Congo. But anyways, I remember there was a vulture. That was it looked like it was close to the kid and it was this hole. Anyways, big story, you can look it up. But I remember that photo when I was a kid. Seeing it going. Like that's changing the way that I'm thinking about starvation happening all over the world. It's changing the way that I think about the way that I give and generosity, there's there's just I just feel like photos have the opportunity to change people's, you know, views and minds. And so I've always been, I've always been intrigued by that aspect. There's a one photo from Iraq that I just for me, it's personal because I my dad left when I was three, I had an abusive stepdad. So the father son relationship is just so important to me, because I just didn't have it. And I've got a photo of a father and a son that are kind of squatting down at the camp. And that to me, for the rest of my life, it's going to be one of my top three favorite photos. Because it means something to me it it it This kid is modeling this fight like they're sitting the same way you can just tell they're related because yeah, they're just literally like, their DNA is just like, sitting and so yeah, things like that, you know, mean a lot to me getting to do that project in New York. Me to kind of movement when it it kind of launched when I was there and ended up being a centerpiece, and I had the privilege of photographing Tirana, who is who started the metoo stuff 20 years ago, most people don't know that Me too, actually started 20 years ago, it was just the hashtag that kind of got popularized at that time. But getting to and spending time with victims I photographed probably 10 women that had all been, it was for many of them was the first time that they were sharing that this has happened to them. And so that was a very hard, I'll be honest, it was one of the hardest things that I've ever gone through. It made me look at my own contributions to the problem. Even as someone who went to China to learn about inequality, I'm still a part of a system. I'm a husband that you know that there's things that I didn't realize that I don't think about and and to me taking those photographs and looking at those photographs is a part of my own transformation. It's a part of me becoming hopefully a better version of myself for the future and for my wife. And I think photography has the power to do that.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, I mean, I think you you've said it said it's so well I mean beyond statistics and facts and numbers. Art particular photography, I think, is such a powerful way to take you into a moment into the story into the the emotion into places and move you in ways that that other mediums can't. And I, I love how, yeah, you use that gift in so many ways to give voice to the voiceless you know it's it's it's a powerful way that it's been used I know by you and I love jump on over to your Instagram, you'll see it a good taste to some of the stuff that it is there any other places that that people can find it? We can throw it in the show notes later on...
Michael McDonald
I mean, there's it's on some websites. Yeah, I can share it. I mean, I think I've got Michael Dean... I don't even know. I've got a website somewhere that I haven't haven't updated. But yeah, well as you can tell, it's not my main thing. Yeah, I love it.
Tim Buxton
Cuz you're busy right now. And fortunately it's still it kind of I see it using a lot of all elements of who you are the creative side, that is Michael McDonald, but also connection relational and am and global person that you are and the justice, you know, person that you are, we you You're now have kind of in some ways gone full circle in a in a, in a relational way in working with some old mates of yours, best friend of yours at the Bible Project. So a lot of people might not really know the Bible Project, though, as I share with people here. And it's it's becoming quite, especially within within those of faith background and Christianity. It's like probably one of the number one tools that people are using these days. You know, in look, you'll do a better job of explaining it and articulating it quickly and well.
Michael McDonald
Yeah, so the Bible project is a we're a nonprofit animation studios. And to put it simply, we make cartoons about Jesus for the internet. So it's a pretty simple, you know, explainer videos around the Bible. And, you know, for me, in my again, in kind of the faith paradigm, that I'm a part of. If you ask anybody, you know, Hey, would you like to be able to read the Bible? Like more clearly, like, Is it is it a weird book, The Bible is a weird book. It's a hard, weird book. And, and I feel like as Christians, we're often not given the permission to say that, but that's just the reality. And it's, it's interesting, because it's, it's tons of different authors in tons of different time periods, written in a bunch of different ways. And, and we read it like, it's all just like this, you know, we read it all the same, and it's just hard to understand. And so, I'm super thankful, two friends, Jon Collins, and Tim Mackey. Tim's kind of our Bible nerd Bible scholar, and Tim is really kind of led the charge in in explainer videos. He was working for he had his own studio, but was doing them for Google and Apple is juggling all the big companies.
Tim Buxton
Is this Jon?
Michael McDonald
This is Jon. Yeah. And so people would approach john to kind of help them explain really complex things in a simple short way. And Jon was brilliant at that. He's incredible at asking questions. He's a learner, no ego, just awesome. Tim is that like Bible scholar, like, moved Israel learn Hebrew is, you know, his favorite pastime would be reading tons and tons of books and you know, being in a cave by himself and just learning and maybe with his family, he loves his family, but you put the two of the together and you've got this
Tim Buxton
And a skateboard.
Michael McDonald
And a skateboard totally. And you put these two together, and that's the Bible project. You've got these, you know, brilliant videos about the Bible, but just done in a really creative way that allows you to understand and actually do that. And so we make, we make videos, we give them away for free, everything's free. You know, that's for me the Justice piece when I would travel around all over the world throughout Africa and the Middle East and everywhere. One of the things, for those that wanted to learn more about the Bible, there's just not a lot of resources out there for Yeah. And, you know, so it was so neat to get to be a part of the team. And that's the part that I oversee, I oversee all the global focus stuff, which is all translating our videos into other languages, and not just subtitles, but actually redoing all the art, redoing all the voiceover. So it actually and contextualizing it for that specific language. So we're redoing scripts, we're redoing things that make sense for that area, and that language. And so it's a huge undertaking, we work with local national, indigenous people to do that. So I have got 29 Studios around the world that are working on this right now,
Tim Buxton
That is phenomenal.
Michael McDonald
We've got, you know, hundreds of contractors that are a part of that, and language advisors and everything else, and we're getting these videos done. for other people. And again, that's all for free, like, everything's just, you know, given away, and so, I love it, I get to, you know, use my relational friends and gifts and things like that, to help be generous in that way. I get to, you know, be here in Portland with friends that happen to all work together now. And that's a lot of fun, you know, kind of felt like coming home. And, yeah, it's great. And here I am in my garage.
Tim Buxton
And, you know, as you know, as you were talking about that, you know, for me, growing up, been, you know, my story growing up, my parents were missionaries in Indonesia, and, and then my whole life being surrounded by various cultures, they were also in, in West New Western Papua, which is, in the tribes, the Dani tribes and, and, and, you know, that kind of framework that I grew up with, of just of, of just parents and a family and environment that just wanted to love on and to serve others. And it's always been as I've read the teachings of Jesus, as I've read the teachings of the prophets, that talk about their this theme of justice of fighting for the oppressed, its you cannot read the Bible without seeing this theme from beginning to end of a and an arc of the alien, the orphan, the widow, we need in a God's heart for them is just overwhelming. And so is anybody who was would be a follow follower of Jesus or to love God, you cannot love God and love your neighbor. And as Jesus would say, your neighbor actually is also your enemy. He's also the person you might be different to the person that's different than you the person you don't understand. That's kind of driven May. And I love the way what the Bible project is doing now is bringing a lot of that to light, you've got even a series on justice. But for a book that can also be weaponized by people as well. I love the ability, that that this project and this work that you're a part of, has the ability to really counteract a lot of that approach to dealing dealing with this beautiful, ancient mysterious. Yeah, text that we that we, you know, is so powerfully informative in our lives and the way we live. How for you, how is you know, how has has the Bible How is even in your work, they're impacted you and in your own life and your own passion for, for fighting for justice? Yeah.
Michael McDonald
Well as it pertains the Bible, I mean, I, I can say this is even a former pastor of a church for 14 years. There were huge seasons of my life that I didn't read. Unless I was teaching something on Sunday. I was not reading the Bible.Yeah. And there was a reason for that I would get into it, I would get mad. Yeah. And I didn't know what to do with with my questions or my anger, because I felt like I needed as a Christian to have all the answers and to be able to defend this thing. And so I would, it would just, I would put it down all the time. And, you know, the the Bible Project had done a few things. One, it's helped me recognize that it is a big, messy book. It is a unified story that does lead to Jesus.There is a unification from Genesis all the way to Revelation. You don't read it the same. There's there's poetry in there. There's history. There's more metaphor, there's, you know, and so things that were and you have to understand context, I think that's the biggest thing that's helped me the most is that the Bible Project brings so much understanding around context, this was a letter written to a certain individual or group of people at this specific time in history, right, that they did not expect was going to be read by billions of people around the world 2000 years later. He wasn't writing that letter, in my opinion, with that intent going, Tim and Mike are going to be reading this letter that I wrote to the Ephesians at this specific time for this reason. And now I don't I mean, that it's incredibly important to understand, and I believe that it's breathed by God, all the things that people are gonna be like, wait a minute, are you saying that the Bible isn't, you know God's Word? Absolutely. But I do think that we have to understand the context in which it was written to see what what it means to me, in 2020, for my family, and for myself, and the Bible project has done such a good job of teaching that. And it's allowed me also to still have questions and not throw it away. Say that it's allowed me to realize it, you know, God is so you know, I've got if you've read in the margins of my Bible, now, I feel like I've had permission, I've circled stuff and been like, angry, or like, Yeah, I don't agree with this. Yeah, this makes me really mad. Yeah, I actually don't understand this. Yeah. And I don't know if I'm gonna understand it until I meet face to face with Jesus and go, God, I don't get it. Like you said, this. I really felt this and I can't reconcile the two, but I'm okay. Now living in that tension. And it doesn't make me not a believer in Jesus, to not understand or to not have, and I think that's you just got to give yourself permission to, to, you know, have questions. And that doesn't make you any less a Christian or a Jesus follow or whatever, in any faith paired, like, have questions. I'm gonna have them for the rest of my life...
Tim Buxton
What is it though, that makes us feel like, if we do question or if we do that makes us suddenly have to feel like we have to justify that we are a Christian or justify that, that we love God, there's something it's almost like, the Bible almost needs to be rescued from itself. Yeah, really, I think it's something we've instilled into it, it's a cultural thing that somehow, you know, either we've given a select few the authority to interpret and then, you know, share what it means. And we just have to kind of sit into that, or we've been taught that if we have questions people judge us for not being, you know, faithful or not being, you know, spiritual, or whatever it is. And we care a lot about what people think about us. I mean, take if you took that equation out, if you said it didn't matter what anybody thought, yes, I actually think that you'd give yourself more permission to ask questions. And that's as I've gotten older, and maybe some of us from the Bible project, so it's just getting a little more gray hair on me. Or I'm like, I'm okay if you want to judge me for not understanding the entire Bible. I'm really okay. Yeah. And I'm gonna keep digging into this and so That is so important. It's hard because we we live in community and we want to be accepted by community. And so it's hard not to not care what other people think. The sad thing is though, you get when you when you don't allow the Bible or any text really when it has this weight to it where it can be like well it says it here bang I can smash you over the head with this because it says it here when it doesn't it doesn't it's not allowed to have nuance it's not allowed to you know, it does Yeah, it can do a lot of damage and I love I love that there seems to be a new wave and your ability to be able to wrestle with this ancient beautiful mysterious diverse text and and and and I think it's coming to life I know these videos and the resources that are out there have been so powerful for me in in bringing it to life in ways that it never has the fact that they're like legitimately, like Pixar Disney quality cartoon, kind of like It's like watching the Into the Spiderverse", but in like with these amazing kind of.. it's phenomenal, you've got to check it out.
Michael McDonald
The artists are insane. Yeah, they're, we've, you know, we've been able to pull people from all those places, you know, and Darkhorse and DreamWorks and all these places that are part of a lot of them are part of the project and so it's pretty... yeah, our artists are, they blow my mind every single time
Tim Buxton
You got the best of the best, and then when it comes, you know You know, and I, I'm not, I'm not saying this to flatter you or any in any way. But the ability as I was talking about people want to belong, and people don't want to feel like, what are they going to think about me? One of the things I've loved so much, and I've learned so much from you, Michael, is this ability to have such an eclectic, such a broad community around you, where everyone actually feels like they belong, where they actually don't have to worry about their, what their faith is, or what they're, they're thinking of what's interesting to them, or what's important to them. And they can be with you know, you as a friend, I've I've appreciated that from, from the many times we've got to just hang out and be together. And I think that's an important part of justice, the tagline for this show is creating, you know, fighting, fighting for a world where everyone belongs. And because I feel like, you know, it's been the sense of belonging, hence the name you belong, as, as really kind of an almost like a message to somebody, it's not, it's not, hey, you're welcome. It's not you, you belong, I want you to hear that, I want you to know that it's something that I think is so critical and crucial to seeing justice, seeing quality, seeing that pressed, seeing those that are hurting, feel loved and valued. And I think creating, creating that, well, now what for you, can you? I mean, can you talk into that a little bit? I mean, what is it that makes you that way? Mike, like? What's made Mike, that Mike, that everybody that knows you knows that they are safe, and they're loved just the way they are?
Michael McDonald
I mean, I honestly, I think it's the people that I've surrounded myself with, I mean, it's it's people like my wife, you know, Melissa, who is one of the most empathic people you'll ever meet, and she, she just loves everybody. So Well, I've learned so much from her. Bob, guys like Bob that, you know, can be who you've had on this podcast, you know, but that just embody that I've just learned I feel like it not just from reading something, but actually going out and, and seeing it and being a part of it. I think there is something to around we were talking about earlier around, not like being kind to yourself and allowing yourself to have questions. Yeah. If you allow yourself to not have all the answers, you're not going to make everybody else also have all the answers. So there's something around, like, the way that you treat yourself is going to be how you treat others. And if you give yourself a ton of freedom to learn and grow and not have it all figured out. And I'm going to be a different person in five years than I am today. Then we also can extend that to others. And can you know, yeah, I just want tons of different types of friends, because I've learned so much from them, I go into these friendships, you know, with this idea. I mean, I felt like that in Iraq, I loved getting to sit with with people that had a different faith background in with Islam, and get to sit and go, tell me about your favorite part about walking your faith in Islam. Tell me about your favorite, you know, interaction with Muhammad, tell me about your favorite way that like, this impacts your family, like I want to learn from you about this, like, I want you to shape me and and if you're afraid of that, then you're not going to, you're only going to surround yourself with people that are like you. Yeah, and so somehow releasing and going, I don't have to be afraid of the differences actually want to be intrigued by them and be a lifelong learner. And it's amazing. Some of the people that are probably the least likely, or the some of the ones that have impacted me the most lane, the guy that I brought up earlier, who's my number one mentor, my life is not a Christian. Yeah, he's the number one person in my life who has taught me more about what it means to be a human, and with generosity and leadership and integrity and all these things that we'd be like, Man, that's a great Christian. That's like, it's not a Christian. Yeah. And I still put them as my number one. Yeah. And so I think there's something about you know,
Tim Buxton
Because it's just a label at the end of the day, really sometimes isn't it is we've just put a label. Well, you're not this you're this and, and, and as helpful as, as labels can be. To know that this is not, this is a glass of water and not methylated spirits, let's say sure. They don't do. They don't do much for relationships, and and really giving yourself permission to learn from people that are different from you there.
Michael McDonald
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you've got to go in. I mean, I remember taking a few people to Iraq, you know, because again, that's the world I lived in with, with the kind of Christian paradigm, but needing to sit down with them and go, I don't want you sharing anything about Jesus or the Bible or anything, unless you are authentically willing and excited to learn about them and their faith. Yeah, you don't get to go and share and teach something unless you're willing to actually listen and learn. And, and it needs to be real. If you can't do it with authenticity, then just don't talk about it, like talk about other things, talk about, you know, being dad or life or whatever, but I we're not going to talk about and what's hard is like you get over there. And faith is such an important part. It's the number one thing they wanted to send all of it.
Tim Buxton
All the things you're not allowed to talk about in the West, politics and faith and right, it's
Michael McDonald
All you're gonna do, you're gonna grab a backgammon set, and you're gonna talk about faith and politics and soccer. [crosstalk]. So I think that was, you know, exciting for people to kind of get to that point where it's like, I don't have to be afraid of those conversations, and I can learn about these individuals and watch how it shapes you.
Tim Buxton
Yeah. Oh, man, well, you've shaped me. I, you know, I'm missed the fact that I'm not stateside at the moment. And though it probably would have been real. No one's going anywhere right now. And it's kind of sad that we don't get to be a part of interact and engage in this beautiful world of ours as much as we'd like. But I'm grateful that I still get to call you up and chat and and for,
Michael McDonald
Forever buddy, we're going to be doing this for a long time.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, coming on this podcast. As we wrap things up, man, man, there's so many, so many places, I feel like I could go and just wrestle some good stuff out that could I think be really helpful what I love, just as you shared, there was this, this permission to not care what others think about us gonna be sticking with me for a while. And, and I think that, I think that's important, because when you do become free to just be yourself with other people, then you'll, you'll know, pretty quickly. Who's worth? Who are the people we're surrounding yourself with? If people are That's right, if people are saying that you have to be like this in order for me to accept you. Don't be caught in the trap. Yeah, of just living up to other people's expectations.
Michael McDonald
And knowing the why I mean, I so take this podcast, for example, if the reason you were doing this podcast was to get a bunch of people to listen, and you, you're going on every day, and you're looking at the numbers, how many people have listened, how many people Oh, we got 100, more 100 more. If that stopped, and you stopped getting more listeners, it would potentially drive whether or not you're going to do this or not. Whereas if your why was because, Listen, I've got some, some people I want to talk with, it's about the conversation. It's about what I'm going to learn in this conversation. It's about, you know, what my friends and family that I know are listening are going to get to learn and eavsedrop into this conversation. It doesn't matter if a million people listen, or 10 people listen, because the root of it is in this constant stretching and learning and growing between you know, the two of us, so when you know the why it's gonna sustain you in you know, doing doing these things. But when the why gets man in it, I think what this what the Bible Project all the time, you know, we've got millions of people every day that are tuning in and watching it, if we all of a sudden get driven by how many people are watching it, versus the content that we're creating, and the reason why we're creating it. We're gonna drift we'll get off you know, we'll, we'll start making "Hot Topic" videos just for the sake of doing it try to get more views and, and yeah, you just got to remember the why. And so when it comes to being a human, what does it look like to really love God and love others really well. And remember the why and I think that can shape and change.
Tim Buxton
Yeah, and when it comes to wanting to do justice, when it comes to wanting Yes, like for other people, if it's just about being, you know, as you know, making a big scene and drawing attention to yourself and what you're doing if it's about you and your platform you're building then goodness, how could that be? So as far away from the actual purpose of what justice is, which is elevating in and and the other, the others and those that, yeah, the oppressed those that don't have the opportunity that don't have the voice? That's right.
Michael McDonald
Yeah.
Tim Buxton
And that's a good reminder, Mike, man. Dude, thank you so much. Thank you. I love it, please. I know Melissa is probably in the in the other room just give her a big hug when you see her. And from Sarah to she's constantly getting little messages from her and, and you know, it's tough it can it's we've kind of done a few. You know, we're still trying to find our feet here in Australia. And I'm sure that Melissa has been one of those people constantly checking in on her and, and you're so right where she is. care so deep. And appreciate you guys. Appreciate you, Mike. Looking forward to our next chat. Thanks so much. Now lastly, what are the ways what's on the horizon for you as we wrap things up? What's anything new happening? anything exciting? Other than kind of renovating your garage? And? Yeah,
Michael McDonald
yeah. I mean, no, we're, you know, we're trying to, um, we're, we walked a half marathon or so we're trying to get out and get access, you know, get, you know, get active and do that, which has been super fun. And then just embracing the time that we're in and making sure that we don't lose ourselves in the midst of that. And so checking in with each other, often and really kind of doing those. Are we doing okay, and what do we need to change in order not to, you know, be in this place. And so, yeah, I think taking care of yourself being healthy. That's what we're working on right now. This is a unique time. When do you get I mean, I get to have lunches with Melissa, every single day. When does that happen? In the last 14 years? You know, like, that's never the case. And I don't commute so I get breakfast with her too. And I'm home for dinner at the exact because I'm here like it's just so to embrace that
Tim Buxton
So for someone who is usually in another country pretty much every other other month or week already. Yeah, yeah, that must be change, change for you guys this weird cuz for other things. I haven't worked at home like maybe two days this whole time. That's how differently we have been impacted. Obviously, it's affected so many other people in so many different ways and right, and I'm thankful that I have it. I have a job to go to. But man, what a what a gift you have right now to focus on, on what is most important, the relationships that matter most. That's awesome, Mike. Well, thanks for contributing you and who you are to, to this. This podcast slow project I got going. Thanks for becoming one of the first patrons to support the show. That meant a lot to me. But Thanks, Mike. I love you heaps. And I learned a lot today and I know people will today to appreciate you.
Michael McDonald
Likewise. Thanks, brother. Love you, man
