Episode 06: Mark Reddy — What Does Chasing Justice Look Like In A World Of Racial Inequality?

Mark serves as the Chair and Co-Founder of Chasing Justice, a movement designed to mobilize people of faith to follow Jesus and live justly. He has also developed a leading consultancy practice focused on strategic communications, brand development, and mobilization. Mark's specialty is helping organizations "find their voice" and emerge as "brave brands."

Mark has spent more than two decades honing his craft of storytelling, implementing a vision, and leading highly capable teams. He is as comfortable walking alongside and serving marginalized communities (locally and globally), as he is in traversing the halls of power and building relationships with influencers and leaders.

Mark has worked closely with Non-Govt. Agencies, Church and Non-Profits, including World Relief, The Justice Conference, World Vision, Compassion, Opportunity International, and many more. Mark has also worked with Innovative Brands, including IBM, TVNZ, Toyota, etc.

Mark and his wife Vickie live in Chicago (IL), along with their daughters (Jada – 14, Mischa – 13). Mark and Vickie have developed numerous campaigns and movements for change, especially around issues of Justice: including Poverty and Inequity, Racial reconciliation, Refugees and Immigration, Criminal Justice and Mass incarceration, and Women's empowerment. Their focus on elevating the voices of those directly impacted by oppression and empowering young leaders to ensure generational impact and sustainability is a critical driver in all they do.

In the few years that I have known Mark & his wife Vickie, I have had the opportunity to see first had the work that they were involved with in Chicago through the Justice Conference. I have experienced first had their kindness, hospitality and contagious passion for justice in our world. I am so excited to see how Chasing Justice will be a catalyst for rebuilding a just world where everyone belongs.

To learn more about Chasing Justice visit www.chasingjustice.com. You can also follow Mark on Twitter  & Instagram @markreddy1.

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Full Transcript

Mark Reddy: Ideas challenge you. When you're trying to look at something and go, "Hang on, that's not how I was told the story. That's not how I was told to accept this people group for this reason." How do I embrace the possibility of that in a context of that is going to be so disruptive to the worldview that I've grown up in, or so disruptive to the frame which I have traditions seeing the world? Do I have enough humility to enter that discussion without, or what if scenario?

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Tim Buxton: You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton. A podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.

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Tim: Hey, there. Thanks for tuning into another episode of Justice Matters. I'm your host, Tim. Today, on the episode, we have a dear friend, a good mate, his name is Mark Reddy. Now, Mark serves as the Co-founder and the sitting chair of Chasing Justice. Now, this is a movement designed to mobilize people of faith to follow Jesus and to live justly. Alongside his wife, Vickie, they moved to the USA five years ago. They now live in Chicago where they got involved with a conference that they started to spearhead called The Justice Conference. It has now since spread out to Australia, he has been running for five years.

Mark has served along in many agencies, many non-government agencies, charities, and churches, including World Vision, World Relief, Compassion, and so many more. He's really dedicated his life to empowering people, especially those that are marginalized in elevating their voices. I think you're going to find in my conversation with him as he speaks in particular to issues of racial injustice that we see so prevalent today, and the important work that chasing justice is doing, you're going to learn so much. I learned so much every time I talk with him and in particular his conversation. I just went away from it thinking, "Well, I've got a lot more learning to do", but I was just so encouraged and so inspired that he is out there leading such important work. You're really going to enjoy this episode. Thanks again, for tuning in. Cheers.

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Tim: Mark, what can I say? Thank you so much for carving out some time. It's good to see you again. The last time, the last time I saw you was in your home in Chicago. I think I had a layover and I was able to sneak my way over to your place. I think the next day you were flying out overseas yourself. I felt lucky to get you.

Mark: Yes. Was that in the middle of winter in Chicago? I can't remember. It felt like it was cold.

Tim: It was pretty cold. I don't think I had, probably, a full heavy jacket. It been dead in the middle of winter because I know that place is brutal. You're not in Chicago at the moment, you're out on the West Coast.

Mark: I'm on the West Coast, I'm in San Francisco and joining a couple of weeks here visiting my sister and her little babies. I'm trying to escape COVID, and do all the things the right way, but it still gets some family time in.

Tim: California seemed to-- do the go pretty hard, pretty early, didn't they? They might not be- is it any different over there to Chicago? Or is it-?

Mark: We can have a whole discussion on the US and COVID-19-

Tim: Okay, let's not do that.

Mark: - and how crazy it is. The California did do some good things early, but it's a big state where, I think, politics and lots of things come into play. Newsom, who's the governor here, announced- and I don't know when this is going to go to here but now, a couple of days ago that the reversing, some of it, so going back into closure is similar to probably what Melbourne is doing in Australia. There are certain areas that are spiking. New York was crazy early, came back down. California did a similar thing, but California seemed to not really recover properly. Summer here, people go to the beaches, we were hanging out, COVID's taken off again.

Tim: The US is so big. It's so diverse. I know for me, when I moved there, all those years ago as an Aussie, I just didn't realize. I moved to New York, which is completely different to California, or the Midwest, or the South, or everywhere in between, New England, and that area. It's kinda like countries in and of themselves and cultures. I can imagine how difficult it is to manage something like COVID over there, and add to all that, the politics, right?

Mark: Crazy times. Honestly, I think, the idea of countries is not a bad analogy. We may go back to something like that. Obviously, there's the 13 colonies, 13 countries essentially, coming together to form this Federation that is the United States. We'd think if COVID doesn't turn the corner, I actually wouldn't be surprised if certain states say, "Look, we're going to lock our borders, but you over there in Indiana, you're not taking masks seriously. We're in Illinois and I'm not going to let you in", or how that's going to work out. I don't know how it's going to play out here, but there is no national coordination. I can imagine some states saying to other states, they're not doing things the right way.

Tim: I live on the border here in Queensland with New South Wales, and Queensland's done very well. The sparked areas for us, have been New South Wales and Victoria. There's been closures of borders and any- like you said, you get used to that long enough. You get used to existing within confined as difficult as it can be because you rely so much on open borders, trade, tourism, and stuff. You heard it first from Mark Reddy, Justice Matters Podcast. America could be going back to breaking back up into those 13 colonies. Now, I won't quote you on that.

[laughter]

Tim: You've lived in the US for quite a long time. I've heard about you and known about you for a long time, from my friendships and my time on the sunshine coast, and all the common connections we have there. I really enjoyed coming out to The Justice Conference. You guys, you and Vickie just hosted me so well when I was there and when I first met you several years back now. I'd love to go into that a bit of your journey as well. As well as hearing about incredible work that you're up to now, Chasing Justice. But I'd like to just bring it back even more, and maybe hit on some of your formative years, Mark.

Some of the things that have really propelled you to really be someone who fights for the oppressed. Who has oriented-- you've oriented your life, your family, has oriented your life to serving, those that are marginalized and doing everything you can to make this world a fair, more just, more beautiful world, and I love to hear about where that all began for you. Can you think of a moment in time, or your upbringing, or-?

Mark: Let me tell you my family story. I think that's a good place to start. My background is actually Indian, I was born in Fiji. My great grandparents, going back for about 100years or so, were brought as indentured labor. There's the arc of the story of slavery is when the British ended slavery. Officially, slavery got another name and that became indentured labor and the practice, the business side of it, continued. One of the last people groups around the world, the British system move around as mass in labor where the Indians, especially the Indians from the South of India, which is where my family comes from. They ended up in the Pacific, you end up with Indian people groups in the Caribbean and Central and South America, in Africa.

That's why you have this really- we had diaspora of Indians around the world, especially those who moved as slaves, indentured labor versus those who migrated through economic reasons. My family ended up in Fiji working essentially as sugar cane, tobacco plantation workers. My father, which is now two generations out of that, was the first in his family to convert from Hindu to Christianity. I'm on three generations out of that. My mom and dad raised me in a Christian family, but you can imagine when you've got that narrative, that arc of the story one year, it's forced migration.

It's not by choice. It means that you're marginalized in the country that you're going into. When you change from one religion, especially the familiar, the family religion to another religion, you will know this from your time in Iraq, that culture dissonance creates a massive outside our culture as well, and you get to figure that narrative out. This idea of justice hasn't been one of this intellectual sense in that. I've heard about it, I read about it. It's just part of my lived story.

Tim: It's part of you.

Mark: The idea of faith and justice is being part of my lived story as well. Because Christianity, when you convert- my parents converted as adults, it's much more of a tangible thing when it's something that resonates in their everyday lived experience as well.

Tim: It's not just a conversion to a new way of thinking. It's your whole cultural identity, as well as your personal identities. Is that what you're saying? Every aspect of your life.

Mark: Right. It's an aspect of your life, but it's also very much something that- if you're born into something, you have a fragile ascension in it. It's something that becomes a culture with people. When you come to faith and you talk to Christians who convert to faith as adults, the conversion experience is much more vivid, it's much more real, much more visceral, they can pinpoint that, and that actually starts to speak into their faith practice as well. You would have lots of these experiences through the Middle East, most of the places where people come to faith as opposed to having been born in it. That was my experience, my family's experience.

My dad ended up studying at Intervarsity Christian Fellowship in the Pacific, and we've moved around as he studied, which he ended up studying in Vancouver region [unintelligible 00:11:45], we get a bit of time there, and then actually in Brisbane. During the '80s when Fiji have the military coups, we couldn't go back to Fiji because dad was working with students. We couldn't stay in Australia. It's weird, about three or four years ago, I was in Iraq, actually, with the Courtney’s who you know really well. They held digital entrepreneurship class for, I guess, Syrians and local- just displaced people who are trying to figure out how to carve a new career.

I was talking to them about branding and story. I'm sharing my story and one of the girls in the class puts her hand up, "That makes you a refugee." I'd never, actually, thought of myself as a refugee, but New Zealand took us in, the way Australia wouldn't keep us at the time. My formative years, I was raised in New Zealand. I went through high school in New Zealand, and ended, back in Australia, my college years onwards. That's a weird arch of the story to basically say, "The family migrated. We're always part of an outside group where faith was a key part of our story. This idea, who do you align with? Which stories do you see yourself resonating towards, the idea of the poor, the impoverished, the widow, or the orphan?" That was a central part of my lived experiences and part of the stories that we were, either physically part of, or that we would emotionally assign towards.

When I think about, is there one experience? Is it one thing? It's-- actually, I feel like my story leads to that and it's been part of that the whole time, which is a great blessing in some regards but it's also one of those things that makes it hard to say, "Hey, I've lived-" If I could say to you lots of friends of ours would say, "This happened to me and because of this, I had this experience." Whereas my story is much more around my- I've always been part of a group of people that I would consider marginalizing in the dominant culture experience, and my aspirations of always being about raising the voice. I've always been about aligning my faith. I've always been about sharing Jesus, and so the idea of faith and justice, study of creativity are something central part of my story as far as I can remember back. I hope you got the sense [crosstalk]

Tim: No, I feel- obviously, I've been following your trajectory a little bit over the years and I have learned so much from the times I'm in trajectory. I feel like I'm really hearing that story, Mark. It helps me see how so often we compartmentalize these things of justice, of faith, of this, and we don't realize how intricately wound up together they can be in our identity or like you said, in your narrative. You took your whole family though. I don't know how old your girls were, and you went to Chicago. Did you go to Chicago first? Did I get that wrong? What made you go to the US? How did you get there?

Mark: No, we moved to Chicago. Back when we were living in Australia, actually I was living in Queensland at the time, I had the opportunity to lead an organization called Christian Media Australia, and during that time, my wife and I started just as a part of that which was dedicated to arts and media, in particular, how do you reconcile with the creativity aspects of artists, the idea of how do you position your faith story, and how do you work in the marketplace, how do you bring creativity into the church, all those kind of things. Spark grew out of that idea.

A friend of ours was a speaker in The Justice Conference which would have been about three or four years old at the time. The Justice Conference was in LA that year, and they were looking for new leadership. He had released a movie weirdly that I've been involved in distributing in Australia a couple of years earlier. He suggested that if they were looking for leadership, they can see what Mark and Vickie are doing with Spark and what's on their heart, and see if there was some ideas that connected. At that time, World Relief owned The Justice Conference and they brought us up.

Tim: Just to interrupt you there, The Justice Conference is US predominantly, it was just all over the US conference that brings faith?

Mark: Yes. The Justice Conference actually started out probably, 2010 out of the church in Bandon, Oregon. Ken Watson was the pastor of the church. Ken had the idea with Stephan Bauman who was the- I guess, with World Relief, he wasn't the CEO at that time and later became CEO of World Relief. They wanted to share the ideas of faith and justice, particularly, with an evangelical audience in the US. Traditionally, the story is depending where you are in the world. A Christian faith narrative may mean different things too, but particularly in the US, especially back a decade or more ago, and, particularly, amongst white evangelicals, the idea of salvation and the idea of doing good works was quite separate.

What they wanted to do was look at how does the idea of God's heart for the vulnerable resonates with his purposes for our lives, and call that a movement of justice. It wasn't a separate social justice idea. It was the reconciliation of worship and justice, prayer, and action. That grew from an idea of the church had in Bandon, Oregon to a movement around the US, and the conference moved around. Essentially, it was one annual conference. They had decided to move it to Chicago, they decided to bring in new leadership. That's when World Relief took over. The financial side of the conference brought me on as the leader on it. The conference now is in about eight or nine different countries around the world, actually, Australia as well, New Zealand, South Africa, Norway 

Tim: I think five years in Australia now, which is great.

Mark: Yes. Australia is the key partner there for doing some interesting things. Actually, the thing I love about The Justice Conference in Australia story, it started the year I moved to the US. You talked about us moving to the US a long time ago. It feels like a long time. It's only been five years. We had the opportunity to be part of seeing-

Tim: That's crazy. It just feels like so much longer. I don't know.

Mark: It does. It does for us. I started commuting to the US to set up my move with the family about six months earlier. For about six months in the middle of 2014, I was coming to the US, coming to Chicago about once a month for about two weeks, and then in Australia for two weeks. It was a bad idea. That's a terrible idea for commuting. It's a long way, but it took us a little while to get the family right. School is in Australia runs January to December, school is in the US runs [crosstalk]

Tim: Just talked to my wife [laughs] It's not easy. How old were you girls at the time?

Mark: They were eight and nine at the time, I believe. Actually, maybe seven and eight. About that.

Tim: Grade three and four, and all that. Yes, it's hard work, man.

Mark: The interesting thing is that the US, at that time, is also going through interesting- what happened, it was in the second half of 2014. That's when Mike Brown gets shot and died. His death marks the beginning of Black Lives Matter, and my foray into trying to steer the church, especially the broad chunk of the evangelical church around faith and justice issues has bookended by Black Lives Matter, the build of the Me Too movement, globalization around the justice stuff, the 2016 US presidential election, now with COVID, and everything else. It certainly hasn't been a time lacking in issues, justice issues.

Tim: You've bookended your time and your work, as it is now, in the US for some pretty eventful times in history, especially in the issues of justice. I am really, really excited about where that's lead you to now. Obviously, you've worked in a variety of non-government agencies, and justice issues, and church-based and faith-based groups. It's really impressive, I'd have to say, just to see the ways you've just navigated through so many different forums with this work. It's lead you to this cofounding Chasing Justice.

You've got a podcast, I've enjoyed listening to a couple of those episodes already and just learning as you're launching out and starting this thing at this moment in time is quite, I think, non-coincidental, I would say. It seems to be the perfect moment for this work. Got a lot for you to share with the audience, a bit about what Chasing Justice is, what lead you to really launch out and start it. We can talk more about that.

Mark: Thank you for that because Chasing Justice is something that I am really excited about. We left World Relief in The Justice Conference about a year ago. We knew all along that God would use what's in our hand, which was a lot of our skills around creativity, around building movements. We didn't know exactly how the next season of life will play out. One of the speakers of the Justice Conference a couple of years ago, 2017, was a great friend of ours. Also, from Chicago, a lady called Sandra Van Opstal. Pastor in Chicago, speaker, worship leader, author in her own right.

Sandra was looking for what can be something that is part of her calling, her next season in life as well. We reached out to Sandra and said, "Hey, do you want to do something together?" And what is it that we wanted to do. The coincidence of the timing side of it is it shouldn't be underestimated. COVID-19 forces some outcomes. I don't think it necessarily brings new things to be. It's like a vice, it squeezes something. All the stuff that was already there, squeezes out in some way.

Racism was there and it was just forced out in some ways. The idea of what do we do with our work-life because jobs then disappear, or what's this generational movement that's taking place? What are young people seeing that boomers are talking about them? We see some conflicts in that space. We initially talked about launching around September, which is in the US the season that new things seem to come. New school year, the UN meets around that time, but with COVID-19 we started launching about February, March this year. We just Instagram live some podcasts. You can see where the audience was and what messages would be resonating towards it.

Our audience or who we want to, we feel core to, the people that we feel like we're speaking to and generating a community around, we would consider them younger. Christians in the context of the 20 to 35-year olds. We would say that there is an evangelical nature to their faith. They may not be assigning that tag because that tag is so worn and has so much baggage associate with it no less, but it is a camp that talks about an individual personal relationship with God. That tends to be the centrality of that idea.

It's also people that may be worn to the tag. Even the church, the church carried the term baggage. They're looking for a connection with their faith, they're looking for a connection with the burning issues. We find this amongst ourselves as well. Confused and overwhelmed. There's so much going on we don't know where to begin. We don't know that God actually cares about all the issues, but there needs a better way.

We know that there's a broad community that fits within that. One of the things that was really essential to our DNA, essential to our thinking, and things that would build the whole framework with Chasing Justice around it. The people that are going to speak into the teachers, and the communicators, the people that you'd be hearing about will be leaders of color predominantly. Our reasoning for that is, in the US in particular, that feels like a marginalized idea. It feels like when you talk about theology, European theology is essential, but all these other theologies are peripheral to that.

We wanted to be a center set of a lived experience. Those who could say, "This is my lived experience. This is my theology set. This is my world view." Who the message is open to everybody, but you are going to listen to, you're going to be mentored by, you're going to hear from leaders of color, especially women of color. That was one of the things that partnering with Sandra that was really important for making her a key voice. Sandra is actually the executive director, the chief executive. There's a CEO of Chasing Justice.

My role is much more around the board role, and vision, and that side of things. Sandra is actually the front for that. She leads a lot of the discussions. You'll see her on podcasts, on Instagram live. Then we have a great community of young people around that as well. Tyler Burns is a pastor out of Florida. A lot of key-- Jasmine out of Chicago. John also out of Florida. People all around the country, pastors, leaders, lay people, young people that are just speaking their lived experience, and then community around the world.

One of the beauties about someone like Sandra and my experience as well is that we travel. We build this cadre, this community of people that are in Mexico City, or in Kampala, or in Iraq, or Turkey, wherever they are. They're young, they're doing incredible things, God's doing some powerful things through these people, and we get to connect with them as well. I believe Chasing Justice is as much a global idea as it is a US idea. Definitely starting with how do you move people from position A to position B, and how do you provide the opportunity to learn, especially from leaders of color and woman of color in that regard.

Tim: I so appreciate that central focus that you have to amplify people of color in that work, and like you said, women especially. Even listening to the podcast where Sandra was saying they were talking about why this podcast, and they would say, "Because we need women, and women of color doing podcasts, not just White men." I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm starting a podcast".

For me, yes, I just so felt that it's so right and so true, and so much needed in my work that I was doing when I met with you a couple of years in Chicago, in your home. I had a role of poverty alleviation in the Middle East, North Africa. Our emphasis was to not to go into that community with the solutions as if we have the answer for their communities to help them come up, our role was primarily to amplify, to create, and facilitate the discussions so they would be centralized so that the solutions to their communities would come from them. We would not go in and ask, "What do you need?" As if we had the answer to their needs. It's like, "No, what do you have?"

Empower them with, "Look, you don't realize you've been told this narrative that you're dependent. That there's paternalistic systemic issues in the way we do relief, and charity, and aid have been existent." I see how important that is and I see how vitally important it is in the work of addressing. Especially racial injustice, and immigration, and refugee injustice issues. That's inspirational for me, and I really appreciate how you're leading the way you've done that, I know in not creating a space for yourself, but a way for other people to speak into that.

I'd like to touch on this specific moment we're in right now. I feel I really want to learn and hear. I've been in this process of really trying to do a deep dive myself personally. I really appreciate having someone like you on. From your perspective in the US, Black Lives Matters has a resurgence, it's like you said, it's been around for quite some time. 2014 you mentioned. It's sweeping the world, it's realizing, it's recognizing, "Hey, this is not just a localized issue of systemic racism. This is a global issue".

In Australia, we've got the focus once again on the indigenous community, on Aboriginal Lives Matters, on des-incarceration, and these issues are so widespread. I'd love for you to share with the Australian audience how Chasing Justice is addressing that, and how you, in particular, what you're learning right now from this moment.

Mark: I think part of it is actually elevating the voices of those who are directly impacted by it, but don't think you always need to put a translation piece into it. Sometimes you just need to speak truth to power. Sometimes you just need to get out of the way and let those whose lived experience, whose voice needs to be heard, be heard. I think what's really important right now is as much about understanding Black Lives Matter in terms of how does it impact, especially for the younger generation of black leaders in the US as they say, "This is my claim, my time, my voice", as it is to project forward and see where this is going to go, or what's likely to be some of the hurdles that are coming next as well.

What I see through this time and this season is an understanding, and I think the reason why it's swept around the world is one, the issues are the same around the world and the issue is that there is an element of those who have power, who are using that power in a way to oppress, to marginalize, to set economic systems, to set judicial systems, to set educational systems in a way that creates oppressive hurdles for those or even create complete barrier, so there's a disenfranchisement from certain communities, and that's wrong.

From a faith perspective we don't need to say that's wrong because Jesus says it's wrong, it's wrong because humans should not treat other human beings in that way, but we're complicit because the church has been so much a part of upholding some of these systems, so we end up using another Jesus example to bring down a previous Jesus example. I think for the trajectory of where things are at right now, it's a binary discussion in many senses about her black life, but it's a macro discussion around oppression of brown colonization around injustice in a way where its majority it's empower. In some contexts of power isn't with the majority, but it's those who have power and how are they oppressing, and what systems are they creating or perpetuating against those who don't have power.

In the US is very much the historic narrative from slavery to Jim Crow, to mass incarceration. Is present. It's not something that you can say, "Hey, we're picking and choosing of these things." They're very much structured, it's very much real, it's very lived in many lives, and as a brown person who's lived in the US, my lived experience falls into a similar channel. I've had somehow lived, whether I've been pulled over by police or whether I see barriers in career pathways or other things, they are there, but it's not the same as someone who's lived in the US, their whole life in that experience.

Now, the same way, why is that idea resonating around the world? Because what we're seeing around the world, particularly in Western democracies is the idea that the system that was is failing us in so many ways, and we need to address the systemic failures. Those who feel the system has left them behind, the system is failing them are finding avenues and addressing those avenues. Why is Black Lives Matter marches happening in Germany? Why is it happening in largely white European countries? Because there's an immigration discussion that's coming in the ride, or there really other issues that are coming into place.

The narrative of slavery is so much bigger when we think about the impact of slavery that had on countries like Brazil or in South America generally, but that issue of the class laid upon race, laid upon colorism has been dormant amongst cultures like in Brazil or other places, and now that's coming to the fore, people, whether it's because of the President or other things that are happening in place, they're saying, "This thing needs to change. The system isn't working for us".

I think what we're seeing around the world has been triggered by the US narrative of Black Lives Matter, but it means different things in different contexts, and that's why it's an Aboriginal narrative in Australia, but downstream it may also become an immigrant narrative. It may become a narrative around assimilation, in Australia very much everyone's welcome as long as you become a mate in this culture. If you want to uphold your cultural integrity, what happens to that-

Tim: Yes, is assimilating to my culture, but I've sat in round tables in community groups, even here in Australia, where that even ideology of my culture is very narrowly defined, forgetting that the fact that Australia is such a multicultural country even in and of itself, like you said, it can't be defined by just those that have power. It is defined by everyone that has made Australia what it is.

Mark: One of the weird historical quirks about the US is its racism has compartmentalized society in a way that gives these pocket cultures the ability to create for themselves and identity. In Australia, you don't tend to make, say, Chinese-Australians in the same way that you have Chinese-Americans or African-Americans. I even hear phrases like, "Australian-Americans" or that immigrant people group that are here. That doesn't happen in Australia in the same way.

Maybe that has changed the last five years that I've been here, it's much more of a- you used the word multicultural, I would actually challenge that, I'd say Australia can be multiethnic, but it's definitely a dominant culture environment. You can come and bring your ethnicity to it, in fact, it's exotic in a way we'll celebrate food, your dance, whatever it is, but actually it's a monocultural society or a dominant cultural society. I think downstream that will break something that becomes challenged in Australia, and hopefully, it's something that adds to the fabric of Australia in a way that creates something beautiful, something great, something good.

There's always going to be attention because when you elevate something that the people that have power, the culture that is dominant at the time will always feel a sense of loss because its power is in some way diluted, so it's going to fight to hold onto the thing that it's losing.

Tim: It will always fight. I heard it, one said, "You cannot embrace the new until you let go of the old".

Mark: Sometimes it all doesn't want to let go, right? You have to fight.

Tim: It won't let go easily. You can't kind of say, "Well, let's just keep a little bit of both." I think to use a Jesus' analogy, he talks about there being new wineskins or old wineskins. You just can't have both, if we really are to forge into what is new, what we know is good, what is right, and just, and fair. Unfortunately, the old got to go, and it isn't going to go without a fight.

I sit feel like that's almost a good analogy of where we're at. There is going to be a fight, there is going to be pushback, there is going to be maybe a back and forth going on, and hence the need for organizations like yourself to lead the way, lead the discussion in a grace field informative way. Can you speak how that can happen in Australia here as well? How we can ride the wave? I know you aren't in the States there, you're very attuned to what's going on and maybe feel a little distant, but I think you have a real unique voice to be able to maybe speak into some of these issues as Australians here.

Mark: I think one of the really interesting things about Australia is that this discussion is happening and it has been growing, and it's good. Now, I mentioned part of my story is I grew up in New Zealand, essentially in my forming years. I remember coming over to Australia and we would start events, and even when we first had our Spark conference in Sydney, and there was the idea of, "How do we acknowledge the Aboriginal legacy to, whether you call it a welcome to a nation or the recognition of the custodians of this land".

Even at that time, and this is going back a decade ago, that was an unusual thing to bring up. Whereas in New Zealand, we would always start something by recognizing the traditional owners of the land, or there'd be some boundary welcoming, or a sense of dignifying those who came before us, even from a spiritual perspective. I can see even in the loss of a decade; 15 years is Australia making more progress. Now I see this thing happening much more commonly. Once that was a fringe idea to the dominant culture, it wasn't happening in other places, but it was a fringe idea to the dominant culture. I see it much more present

now in Australian culture. I've seen that progress being made. I also recognize even as that narrative was coming through-- I'm not sure if you remember when Stan Grant's book came out and things like that and how much of a pushback that received. I don't know if there are questions about individuals in character, but there's an arc to the story, right?

Tim: Sure.

Mark: How that was seen to be pushy controversial. "Why is he doing this sort of stuff?" Now, these stories come through and some are met with resistance, but it feels more common, more normal. I think that's part of the journey of progress. Australia is starting to face some of these stories, these hurdles. All that I say is that previously what would have been considered to be fringe ideas or even progressive ideas or out-there ideas can become a bit more accepted, especially amongst the younger generation within the dominant culture. Friends of ours like Jarrod McKenna with Inverse Podcast and others that are a key part of that story, that narrative, and how do you reconcile core theology, faith narratives, Aboriginal culture, justice issues in Australia.

What I'm excited about is that you don't need to compartmentalize it to Australia either. We live in a globalized world and so you can learn. You've just got to figure out how do I apply this in my context? I think that's the bit that Australians have to grapple with for themselves. Weirdly one of the sports I enjoyed, even though I tell a story of my family's marginalization in some regards, the idea of golf. When I was in New Zealand I got introduced to golf by some friends. Golf is one of those weird things. It's a social sport but an individual game, and so justice in this regard is a social sport but it's an individual game.

How do the individuals, how do me, myself, how do Tim, how do others in Australia, what do we need to do to our lives? What choices do we need to make? How do we need to educate ourselves? What are we doing with our purchasing power? How are we applying our agency, where we're placing our jobs? What we're doing with the choices we're making. Who we're voting for, sending our kids to certain schools, all those kinds of things. Those are all part of a cumulative effect that leads to a lifestyle, and I would say a lifestyle of faith and justice. What inputs can I put in my world? What am I reading? If I find there is a deficit or I'm finding something new and that new thing challenges me in some way, what am I putting into my thought process, my education system, that allows me to expand my horizon, provide new frames as it is?

What am I doing with my relationship set? What am I doing with my social set? What am I doing with my income, my discretion? How can I lead towards a lifestyle of justice? One of the frames for Chasing Justice is as much about dressing. You talked about immigration, you talked about-- My wife is really heavily involved in incarceration issues here in the USA. Refugees, race, gender. These can feel like bowling balls, you're juggling bowling balls, and it becomes unwieldy at some point. There are so many issues. It becomes overwhelming, confused. Not only am I confused by the issues, I'm living in a time where the media and the political system is intentionally adding to that confusion. It's like a simplified narrative. A heuristic will make it easy for me to sell something, but that simplified narrative is unhelpful with the nuances needed for this time.

I've got to create a framework, a latticework system for my faith, for my intellectual capacity, for my lived experience, my family, that says no matter what the issues are I can add all these issues. Even though it's going to feel overwhelming at times, there is sufficient robustness to it that I can live a lifestyle of justice, I don’t need to ebb and flow and swing with that issues of the day. That I can create a narrative that actually is also central to my faith, that Jesus is a key part of that story for someone like myself. I know there are people that will be listening to this that don't have a faith perspective or don't even have an evangelical perspective, but that wouldn't say is there a central idea of morality? Is there a central compass that drives me? That the framework that I'm building around that can handle issues, especially when the political side of that issue feels so vexed at any given time.

Tim: No, I love that. If love's your thing what does that look like? Does that look like certain people are welcome and others are not? Certain people should have advantage and opportunity and others not? I get that-

Mark: Love's a great idea [crosstalk].

Tim: Isn't it?

Mark: Love is a wonderful idea that Christians want to talk about until it costs something-

Tim: Exactly.

Mark: -and it becomes uncomfortable. Love means that I actually need to think about do prisons need to exist, because when I think about love, that maybe is not the best way to do something. How do we deal with immigration when it comes to love? How do we deal with our Muslim neighbors when we're talking about intercultural, interreligious exchange?

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Tim: Jesus says, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Obviously love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as you love yourself. That concept, it gets challenged, "Who is my neighbor?" Then when you dig deeper into that idea, you see how Jesus reframes that even to be not just someone who's different than you but who ultimately is your enemy. The person you would least want to do that. Like you said, love can be a soft and fluffy idea that we like to reserve for our own little people. That we have our own in our own little tribe, our own a little world. That when that intersects with those that are perceived different to us, those that are perceived our enemies, it really challenges all of these things and rightly so.

Mark: Yes. I get confused when Christians use love as a reason to not do something. That's the element where I go [crosstalk].

Tim: Talk about that. I'd like to hear what you mean. That's great.

Mark: For example, I've got to love my small group at the expense of the big group. That kind of idea of love. It's an exclusive nature to what they describe love as, whereas love is so much more challenging when it's dangerous, when it's vulnerable, when it's selfless when it actually could cost you everything. In the Old Testament, they're talking about neighbor in the Jewish context. There is a school of thought that would say that it is talking about Jewish communities or the people group that are associated with, but then you go to the New Testament because there are no Jews and no Gentiles, and so we end up with an arc of a story that allows a framework to exist.

Tim: Which goes back to what you were saying.

Mark: That says if I want to compartmentalize it just here I'm going to have this meaning, or if I want to compartmentalize it just here I'm going to have this meaning, but if I look at the arc of the story I know where this is going. I know what Jesus has spoken about. I know the story that the Bible is telling us, and it is selfless. It is about how we as a people group of believers, the people group of faith, what do we represent to a broader world? What messages are we doing in that regard?

As we think about plagues now and COVID-19, one of the Rodney Stark talks have been that Christianity really grew especially through the Roman era where Christians chose to sacrifice their lives to stay with those in cities that were dying. That's why Christianity grew in reputation so strongly because it was so sacrificial. It was the ones that were willing to stay with the dying that gave it its enigma, that gave it its real appeal to so many people, and then it grows and blossoms across the Roman empire. The challenge is that it becomes really attractive for something sacrificial. It grows to become part of the dominant power paradigm, and then it struggles to go back to something that's really sacrificial because you're always challenging between sacrifice and power. That's the story of Christians.

Tim: In short could you say it's when love and justice become separated? When they're not seen as one and the same thing ultimately?

Mark: Absolutely. It's even when faith and justice become separated.

Tim: Exactly.

Mark: I think that's where we start to realize that there is an agenda associated with what we're doing and when we can use it. When Christianity in one hand is used to uphold slavery, is used to uphold Nazism, is used to uphold supremacy in one regard, you know that it's co-opted in some way. When it's used to defend the status quo so that the system cannot be challenged and therefore we can't try new things, we can't dismantle systems that are inherently oppressing people and you go, "There is something wrong with-

Tim: There is something inherently wrong with that.

Mark: -that allegiance here. It isn't an allegiance to the sacrificial love that is talked about in the Bible, it's an allegiance to power and dominance." Whether you're separating love and justice, you're actually just compartmentalizing, or you're using the word love but actually just really saying that it's connected to the power that keeps me happy, keeps me attuned to-

Tim: Secure, safe.

Mark: -the privilege that I have. I think that's probably more of the issue than it is decoupling it from justice.

Tim: Yes. Love isn't safe. You were talking recently on your Chasing Justice podcast about Aslan and Amos, and that idea of love in that great novel by C. S. Lewis defining who is this Aslan. He's good but he's not safe. I think that's what we have to see what love and justice is if it is a venture into safe, messy uncharted territories. I don't know about you, Mark. If I can look back in my life and think of anything that I've achieved or set out to do, it's never been because I decided to play it safe or decided just to stay within my little comfort zone. It's always been when I've stepped out in humility, in vulnerability in the face of fear. I love that idea of restoring that to what love looks like and what doing justice.

Mark: A Cornel West [crosstalk], "Justice is what love looks like in public," that's the idea of how does this manifest? We can talk about it but how does it manifest? I want to be cautious around the idea of big adventurous living and that it sort of ends up-- You've done this and you've moved around the world, you lived in Iraq. My family has moved around the world. It can often feel like those people who do big things are the ones that are doing justice or living a just life. I think justice is something that's very ordinary in many regards, and we've got to figure out how that ordinariness becomes practiced. How is it part of my everyday life? There are some great adventures and a lot of us are privileged to have those great adventures, but I don't want to make that the only expression of justice or the only expression of [crossatalk].

Tim: You're going on that mission trip to the other side of the world is the mentality.

Mark: Right. That's so problematic in many ways as well. You're willing to go on the other side of the world but you're not willing to sit down with your neighbor or do something in your own city. You're going to save someone versus learn from them. That idea of [crosstalk].

Tim: It's freeing to be honest. It's freeing. I remember when I came back from Iraq and just going through depression, thinking I was in the middle of something I was so passionate about and so I felt like I was doing something great. I guess it can be quite a normal process of grieving, of losing. It was a lot of emotions, but the beauty of being able to find-- These same issues, these same struggles are happening to people around me. No matter how pretty and nice it looks on the outside, no matter how great Australia is with great schools and no crime or whatever you want to picture Australia as this incredible place, there's so much that can be done in your own backyard, in your street, in your school. It's really important to emphasize that. The mundane every day, the very local way in which you can do justice.

Mark: It's also going to come down to your purchasing. Where are you choosing to invest? What is your pension fund doing? Your [crosstalk].

Tim: Oh, don't mention that, Mark. Come on, I was just kidding. [laughs]

Mark: No, but you said totally, [crosstalk] the idea of divestment. I'm not into cancel culture in the context of just picking and choosing what you want to do, but I think you have to have integrity. Integrity across your financial choices, integrity across your purchasing power. You as the purchaser, what can you do? Especially if you live in Australia, which is essentially a capitalist Western democracy that is built on capitalism as a tool. There are also things where you've got to challenge the status quo. It's not so much I've got to go around the world, but what if my challenge is how is Australian history taught to my children?

Tim: Oh my goodness, yes. [crosstalk] I can't even remember growing up. I think Australian history was Ned Kelly. Just thinking about my own education, I remember as a little kid going to the library and reading a book about Dreamtime stories, but it was just so, so, so little. I've just been doing obviously a deep dive now but realizing, "Oh my goodness, I missed out on so much." You're right.

Mark: I remember having a conversation recently in our family and we were talking about slavery in Australians' history. My wife, who's Australian, she didn't know about that story because she was never taught it. Her family heritage goes back to the First Fleet. She has the documented lineage that one of her ancestors came in on the First Fleet. It was something that for whatever reason my friends, which were Solomon Islanders and the people that would talk about it, because it was their families that were brought as slaves to Australia, literally as slaves that you're blackbirding. I'm like, "Australia doesn't have a slave history." No, it does obviously, you just haven't been taught about it. Let alone the Aboriginal genocide, land rights, and all the things that enculturate now, to saying, "Why is this group getting millions of dollars and nothing is changing? What's happening with violence in Aboriginal communities?" Yes, but what have we built? What is the system that we're trying to uphold here? What makes it easy to tell this story and not another story?"

Tim: If you're listening and you're an Aussie and you want to learn, I know there's a great organization, Common Grace, that has a lot of resources and I've learned a lot from just reading up. You mentioned Jarrod McKenna and the Inverse Podcast. There's a lot of work that Jarrod has done and others as well. There's a reference point. Shout out to that to go and learn, and I think it's really, really important. I've found that really important myself. As well as all the great new documentaries and how it's coming to the forefront. I'm seeing on my feeds on SBS and ABC and on all the different streamings. Now there's a lot more out there that I can listen to. It's been really, really good, at least from my own experience, to just see that more available and accessible for us

Mark: Absolutely. Actually, it's one of the things that I miss about not being in Australia, is services like SBS and ABC. We just don't have that here or in the same company at PBS, but the ability for that content to be accessible for a large majority of the country in a way that is so compelling, that's entertaining, that is truthful.

Tim: I appreciate that about Australian culture because I remember the news I watched every night was always SBS. That was World News. We didn't watch Channel 9 or the more traditional channels because in my family it was like, "What's going on in the world?" There was that at least in my home, that more world conscious, more global thinking.

Mark: That's great. You were in a unique setting then, I think, as a white Australian growing up watching SBS World News.

Tim: My parents definitely they were-- I owe a lot of my passion for justice and world issues through the example they set. They were immigrants that came over from England and I had obviously a lot of opportunity, but I was born in Indonesia and they decided to move and serve and in West Papua and work there. In our home, there was always those from Solomon Islands or Papua New Guinea. It was kind of home-like almost all the time. I was grateful, so grateful for that experience. I confess I looked back at all my baby photos and I was always being held by-- I had this black little onesie on as a little baby. Looking back I'm like, "Wow, I was always with Black kids and Black people." I literally remember thinking to myself, "Man, I just wish I was Black." I really, really did as a kid. That sounds silly. Maybe not silly, but just thinking about that.

Mark: That actually speaks to the idea of what becomes normative in our stories.

Tim: Right, exactly.

Mark: You grew up in an environment where it was normal to be Black and you were the one that was outside of that system. Whereas a lot of people in Australia don't grow up in that context or don't see gender in the same way. They don't see a Black woman leading or a woman of color leading. To elevate those who you don't normally see as the normative, to find a way of positioning that in conversations and roles and leadership, I think that becomes a key part of the other generations or others in our community finding a normative experience then.

Tim: Man. So true. I think it comes back to how do we elevate, how do we empower those and let that voice be heard and lead us into creating a new norm. Creating the new norm that I know. That new, let's say wineskin, that new system, that new way of looking at and living in a just world, that new just world we all long for. You've been doing incredible work. It's hard work fighting for justice. It's a difficult challenging work, there's a lot of setbacks. Time is running away, but in this quest for a better world, in this quest for a more just, free, compassionate world that we all know and we long for, what have been some of the greatest challenges, maybe even personally for you, in that?

Mark: The challenges have been trying to figure out how to be humble in the different-- When ideas challenge you when you're trying to look at something and go, "Hang on. That's not how I was told the story. That's not how I was told to accept this people group for this reason." How do I embrace the possibility of that in a context that is going to be so disruptive to the worldview that I've grown up in or so disruptive to the frame in which I have traditionally seen the world in? Do I have enough humility to enter that discussion with a "what if" scenario? That's been challenging because along the way, yes, my story has been the story of being marginalized in most different contexts, but actually a lot of traditional Christian Orthodoxy has been part of my story as well.

We talk about power or privilege or race. Part of it is how do I challenge some of my own built-in bias and thinking in that because are we all God's children? Should we just all get along? Why are we talking about these tough things or what is the role of gender in leadership? Where are we going in the future of thinking? Even beyond that. We're talking about issues here to do with human dignity, time, and identity, all the stuff that's associated with our current present time. As we project forward, what is the role of science? Yes, the environment and ecology is going to be important, but what about AI? What about information independence? What about the collapse of ecosystems? Where are we going in that regard and who will be listening?

Who are our Christian thinkers in that space? What if the people that I need to think, people I need to listen to, and ideas I need to think about, aren't coming from the people that I would naturally want to believe or I would naturally want to associate with. What is my humility in that? What is my humility in that? That's not easy. I would say that's taken a lot of unpacking of my faith tradition and understanding how to walk with grace in that journey and know for some people [crosstalk].

Tim: It's coming to terms maybe with even the fact that the church and maybe elements of Orthodox Christianity has some skeletons in its own closet that need to be addressed with and dealt with. I think of even my own faith. I don't know how it relates to you, but when you grow up within a certain tradition there's a lot of things you just take on as default positions or default zones and it does become difficult sometimes to have to reconcile with that. Like you say, when it comes to dealing with a variety of issues that would maybe challenge the way I just inherited, let's say, those stances.

Mark: Yes, absolutely. You don't really know how you're going to respond to something until you're in the pressure of the moment or your world falls apart in some way and you've got to figure out how you deal with that. I think that's part of the really tough part of our stories and our experiences is that often we're not going to know until it gets really bad in some capacity.

Tim: Or it hits the fan kind of thing.

Mark: I've found that in different parts of my life, is I wish that I was a better learner. I wish that I could understand the arc of the story that God wants me to understand without having to hit rock bottom or hit a collapse in some way that it forces me to pivot my shift, but sometimes that was the only way that I was going to do it.

Tim: It's a blessing in disguise almost.

Mark: We all talk about it. There's always an opportunity. I've made some big mistakes along the way and I wish I'd found those opportunities in a path that wasn't as costly or as hurtful in some regards. I also think that all those stories, all those difficulties, all of those hurdles, all those scars, make us who we are. You talked about what are the key values? You talked about humility. I would say empathy is one of the key ones. Empathy, I think, comes down to an experience set in some way as well as understanding the position of others. For me, what I can see through my story is that I've had to experience a lot of things to have the humility and the empathy to see people in certain lights, and to challenge even the status quo of my friends and my religious orthodoxy to go, "That could be wrong. There needs to be a different way." I think that's it. Have a natural curiosity, have humility as I desire to really seek God, and trust the journey.

Tim: Man, I love that. When people go to another culture, another country, which is the very gift if you have the opportunity to do that, and suddenly everything's different, they call that culture shock. Sometimes the only way for you to truly see or experience it is to go through that shock, culture shock, and whether it's-- A few guys in the studio here, we get in chat. We've coined the term faith shock where suddenly you're like, "Wow, that's different." Often we like to say, "This culture is right and this culture is wrong. The way they do things." We get very black and white binary in that discussion. I think bringing that into our faith, bringing that into our journey, bringing it into the humility, "Hey, I'm on a journey, and I'm trying to discover a faith that really is able to be applied into this very crazy, wonderful world that we live in." That constantly being challenged and being shocked can be difficult.

I've too often not had the grace in response to things that have challenged me and made me feel a little shaky or insecure. Going through that shock and that process, like you said, it can be difficult when you're faced with it or if it's come through a trial or failure or whatever that might be. Patience and perseverance to get to the other side, give yourself a little grace. It gives you so much empathy, like you said, for other people as well. "Oh my gosh. I've just seen things from my perspective. I can see things from another view now." Makes us all richer for it.

Thank you for sharing that, Mark. That's almost another discussion for another time, I think, but a good one, a really good one. I'd love to point to the future here now a little bit as we close up. Your hope. What is your hope for the future? What is your hope for Chasing Justice? I know that in you is someone who is an optimist, is someone who can wrestle with the visceral struggle, but also see and know that there is a future that's worth fighting for. What is that for you, mate?

Mark: On the Chasing Justice front, we're launching curriculums and mentorship programs.

Tim: Brilliant.

Mark: I'm really optimistic to see how that grows and that flourishes so that people can have individual learning pathways and they can have mentored experience pathways. Taking someone from just a follower to living a just life. Who becomes an ambassador, who becomes someone whose life is about advocating for others, for disrupting systems of oppression, to elevating-

Tim: It's like a discipleship pathway almost, in that process.

Mark: Absolutely. I actually think that everything that we're doing is about discipleship. Everything that we've got right now is a fruit of discipleship. I don't think we can say that what's wrong with the world is because there's been a lack of discipleship from the church. A lot of it has to do with how we have disciplined people to get the results we're getting now. I think there is another form of discipleship that will lead to a whole generation of people that see Jesus as central, that see making the cause of the oppressed, the marginalized, the vulnerable. We talk about the orphans and widows as a key part of that, but also like what is economic justice? What is environmental justice? What are we looking to in the future? That Chasing Justice creates a frameway, and a mechanism for that.

Something that I'm really excited about is that I see it in my kids. I see this idea of generational change. Something really weird happened the other day. There was a political rally by the president and TikTok and K-Pop fans all bought out tickets to the event.

Tim: All the seats.

Mark: They thought millions of people were going to attend and they didn't. One of my daughters said, "Our generation, we went and bought all these tickets." I was like, "Wait, it's a throwaway line but you're absolutely right. Your generation is going to do something really incredible." Whilst we're in this melee, right near the mix of people that are fighting to hold on to what they're going to lose, people that hold on too long, the generation change happening, the gender norm changes that are coming through in the middle of all of that, the environmental stuff that's happening, the economic recession. There is a craziness that's happening right now, but I am really optimistic about whatever you call Gen Z. The idea of the younger generation, what they're going to do. Now, the bit that I would really pray for is that they'll have a strong connection with Jesus, a strong connection with the grace of the gospel. I have no doubt that they can do without that. I think it is going to be so much more impactful when the centrality of the gospel is a key part of that story as well.

Tim: Oh, I love that, Mark. Thank you. I tried to hit on the curriculum button on your website and I'm like, "Ah." I can't wait to get my hands on some of that. That's so exciting. Guys, definitely check it out. What's the website?

Mark: Chasingjustice.com

Tim: You've also got a podcast. You can really get started and learning and join and get on their mailing list to learn what's going on. That's awesome. Any other ways people can interact and engage?

Mark: Instagram is probably a great way to connect because we were probably most current on a regular release basis on Instagram.

Tim: Good. Doing some Insta lives and things like that?

Mark: Insta lives, all those things. Obviously podcasting, subscribe to that. The curriculum stuff we should have up in September. Everyone is trying to figure this out, like when do we get back into small groups? We'll probably do cohort programs later this year as well.

Tim: Brilliant. The Reddy family, you guys are heading back in a week or two to Chicago. Who knows if schools are going to reopen, but I can't wait to get your wife on and to talk about some of the great things.

Mark: You're doing one of these with Vickie. Absolutely need to do that. Vickie has a champion of justice issues like no other. I love listening to her and her faith journey and the unpacking of-- We talked a little bit about it here. What we traditionally grow up with and how do we find our own identity in that? That's been very much her journey. She's learning full time in a seminary program in a men's maximum-security prison.

Tim: Come on.

Mark: That's pretty [crosstalk].

Tim: Isn't that incredible? Man, we're getting her on. I said I was just hanging for the low hanging fruit to get you on first. I'll work my way up to see if I can get a Vickie on. Honestly, such a pleasure, man, to chat with you. I know I've stolen way more of your time than you had allocated and I'm just grateful for that, man. I'm cheering you on from all the way back here in Australia. Can't wait to see how things go for you and look forward to catching up again soon. Make sure you make a trip down to Goldie next time you're back in Australia.

Mark: No problem. Hopefully soon. I don't know when we can travel again but would love to see you guys. Love you, brother. I'm excited for this podcast for the season you've got going on in life. God doesn't make mistakes. However, we got to where we are, He's going to be using this incredible gift, this time, this offering that you're presenting to a powerful thing, so I'll be praying for that.

Tim: I appreciate it, man. Hey, God bless you, my friend. Take care. Give greetings to the fam.

Mark: God bless. Take care.

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Tim: There it is, my interview with Mark Reddy. I had a wonderful time chatting with Mark and I always go away feeling like I have just learned a stack, and I hope you did too. Now, there is so much more to learn about the work of Chasing Justice. You can head on over to their website. It's simple. It's chasingjustice.com. They've got stacks of resources. They also have a great new podcast out right now. You can check it out. It'll be pretty easy to find. Just search Chasing Justice and it will come on up.

You might be interested to know that I continued to have my conversation with Mark and there's a bonus content of that conversation up on Patreon. It's a privilege to those who support this podcast. If you'd like access to that, head on over to patreon.com/justicematters. For just as little as $5 a month you get access to this bonus content and all the behind the scenes extras that I upload there. Special mention now goes to music artists John Ardt and David Gungor, also known as The Brilliance, for the music that they provide for this podcast. As always, Jose Biotto, my man. Thanks, mate. He is the audiovisual engineer for the Justice Matters podcast. Mate, thanks so much for producing the show. You do a fantastic job.

Lastly, guys, if you are enjoying this podcast, would you consider giving me a huge virtual high five? You can do that in the podcast world by hitting five stars on the ratings of this podcast. You could also leave a review. That would be amazing and a great way to help us get the word out. You can do that on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, and you can also share it with a friend. It's pretty easy to flick them a text with the link, maybe on WhatsApp, DM them, PM them. I don't know which one it is. Is it direct message? Is it private message? Whichever one you do share it out there, that'd be great. Now it's time to wrap things up. Guys, join me again soon for another episode of Justice Matters. I am your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.

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