Episode 26: Jill Lovell — How Education Leads to Empowerment & Ultimately, Justice

Jill Lovell is a passionate educator who, for the good part of 20 years spent her life in Mozambique, empowering and educating some of the poorest and underserved communities in Africa. Throughout her career she has overseen various programs, providing education expertise with a number of organizations, and for the last seven years has been with Mission Educate. In her role as Projects Director, she oversees their primary, secondary, and adult education programs. Since returning to Australia in March 2020, she has joined the team at Queensland University of Technology as both an educator as well as a student. Currently working on a Masters thesis, she not only has a wealth of knowledge but years of incredible cross-cultural experience. As we talk about the role of education in justice work I found myself learning so much and I know you will too.

To learn more about Mission Educate you can visit their website at MissionEducate.org. You can also connect with Jill on LinkedIn.

Learn more about Justice Matters — justicematters.tv
Support the show — patreon.com/justicematters

Full Transcript

Jill Lovell 

If you recognize a need in your own child or you know, one of your children has a particular area they want to get involved with in the future where they want, what they want to be. What you do is you facilitate that child becoming the person that they're being called to be right, fulfilling their potential. So they're great with art or something like that. So you get them into art classes you facilitate, you don't actually do the artwork for them. You facilitate them becoming what they want to be right. So if we can do the same as organizations, we'll find out what it is that these people can be one to be one to do, yes, and then facilitate that to happen.

Tim Buxton 

Welcome to Justice Matters, the podcast inspiring a world where everyone belongs. I'm your host, Tim Buxton.

Tim Buxton 

Today on the podcast, we have Jill Lovell. Now she is a passionate educator who, for the good part of 20 years, has spent her life in Mozambique, Africa, empowering and educating someone in some of the most poorest disenfranchised communities. She's overseen a various programs, providing education with a number of organizations, and for the last seven years has been with mission educate overseeing their primary, secondary, and tertiary tertiary education programs. She came back to Australia for a brief visit in March 2020. And as you know, COVID has meant that she has now been in Australia since then, and she's turned herself to some study. Now she's with Qt not only as a teacher, but also as a student working on a master's and post doctoral work. She has a wealth of not only knowledge, but experience and as we talk about the role of education in justice work, man, I learned so much and I know you will, too. It is a privilege and an honor to share the conversation that I had, just today with Jill.

Tim Buxton 

Jill, thank you so much for coming into the studio. For you know, an episode on justice matters. I really appreciate you coming in. 

Jill Lovell 

Thanks for having me. I've listened to a few episodes. I'm very excited to be a part of it. 

Tim Buxton 

Cool. We've just got done with a lovely coffee and breakfast chatting for already a couple of hours. So hope we've got enough left in the tank to kinda keep this conversation going. 

Jill Lovell 

I'm certainly someone with a lot of words. I could be okay. 

Tim Buxton 

So good. Well, yeah, again, it was just it's been, you know, I feel like I've known you for a long time already. And we've got some great mutual friends. And we're also studying together at QUT. You're actually a teacher as well as studying. Can you explain a bit about what your you're doing right now? 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah, sure. I started mastering philosophy in the middle of last year, some six months into my research degree. And this semester, I'm also tutoring on the subject code, responsible enterprise in the Master of Business. 

Tim Buxton 

Wow, you got your hands full. You're also involved in, in the nonprofit work that you've been a part of, for the most part, for most part of 20 years, you've been in Mozambique with a few organizations and and for the last, what? Seven years? Yeah, seven years, you've been with an organization called mission educate in Mozambique. And so you still got a bit of involvement there. Tell us about you came back to Australia. Like, right on time. Right. dry before 

Jill Lovell 

Some would say right on time. Yeah, for sure, I arrived on the 15th of March last year. So just before they brought in the home quarantine, I think it was like a few hours literally before that happened. I came back originally for a couple of weeks. And one year later. I'm still here. So it's been been quite not quite the year that I planned or anyone planned, I think but managed to find some things to do. Yeah. And do do you you are I mean, to think that you've thrown yourself into a master's program and teaching and I'm sure itchy feet still to try and get back to Mozambique and to get on the ground as well. Absolutely. Tim Yeah. I as I said, I only planned to be back here for maybe a month at that time. But found myself stuck in Australia. It's hard to say stuck in Australia because it's been such a great experience to be here for the last year compared to many countries around the world. Yeah, my intention was just to go back. I had all my things I took just a small suitcase to Australia. My hoem was there. So I still got things now spread out amongst a few different friends houses and had to let go of my rental there. But um, yeah, I hope to get back there sometime I'm still working part time with mission education, overseeing our programs and projects on the ground there. 

Tim Buxton 

Well, I mean, I'd love to really get into a bit about your work and the vast experience, I think you really bring even coming into to some of your your master's program, and things that you're passionate about, but it kind of you know, we were just having a little chat before we press record bout, about the impact of COVID. You know, I've been in Queensland, that this whole time, and the experience as a Queensland to someone in, in Victoria, in Melbourne, that has has gone through COVID is completely different. I'd love to get your kind of insight a little bit about how some of the developing world and you know, countries like Mozambique and other other other other people, in fact, are just wrestling and struggling and with the impacts of COVID there. 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah. So yeah, the country where I've been living in is Mozambique, it's in southern Africa. Many people may not have heard of it, but may know South Africa, Zimbabwe, Zambia, they're all surrounding Mozambique. It's on the coast. Yeah. So they're very quickly, everything got shut down. People were asked to wear masks all the time, schools were closed for about seven months of 2020, which was really different for us. emission educate because we're an educational organization. So our school, our TAFE, and other programs were all closed for that entire time, which was hard on us hard on our students, we implemented some online courses and WhatsApp was our means of communication. Our students tried to beat up Google classroom and other means of communicating with students. But there was a very challenging time and still is actually with the South African variant of the virus. Yeah, at Christmas time, there was a lot of travel between various countries in southern Africa and the virus, that variant came into Mozambique. And there's been quite a number of deaths in the last few months, including the mayor of the city where I used to lie he passed away last week, which was tragic, um, oh, man, everybody, for his family and for the city as a whole. Yeah. So yeah, it's really impacted people across the board. And there's been, we've had some of our students lose parents, to COVID-19. I am not aware of any about actual students being affected yet. But it's, yeah, it's certainly not over in many parts of the world. 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. And, you know, it kind of, it's hard to kind of be grateful enough, to be honest. Being here in Australia, we came back, our family came back in in January, before anyone really even sneezed. And so it really wasn't, you know, on the scene, but then to be here in Australia to see how it's impacting so many other people, you know, economically the challenges people have, but, you know, we were talking about, you know, if it's hard for us to relate, if it's hard for me to relate to someone in Melbourne. Let's say for example, who's had to be on lockdown for months, who's, who's really, you know, who's,you know, maybe their job is just completely got decimated because of the lockdown. And, you know, the ripple effects that that has on people's lives? How much more? Is it difficult for us to even relate? 

Jill Lovell 

Absolutely, yes to someone overseas. Totally. I think it's very, very difficult to relate to somebody if you've not been there and seen or experienced the same thing as they have. But all of us, I think, can learn to have some empathy and compassion with somebody else and try and listen and hear the experience of others be that brown Corona virus or any situation in their lives that, that if we stop and and listen to somebody else, and what they're going through or what they've been through it, it helps us have some understanding, and then perhaps relate to them in a slightly different way, in the future. 

Tim Buxton 

So step one, get yourself in a situation where you're actually sitting down and meeting with somebody that is different from you, or whose experiences who has experienced great suffering or great injustice or great pain in their life, like find yourself in a situation where you're able to have a conversation or order meet person. Exactly. And listen to the person you know

Jill Lovell 

Ask questions. And I think, I don't know if we want to go down this track team, but both of us are white Australians. And we can often not have an understanding of what somebody from another race might experience just in their day to day life. But yeah, if each one of us can sit down with somebody and just say, Hey, tell me your experience. Tell me what your day to day life is like, tell me some of the situations that you've been in. And I think we're talking before Tim, that if you look someone in the eyes and sit down and talk to them, and they talk to you and tell you their experience, just to dismiss it and say, No, that can't be true, is much, much harder than say, on social media to just write this what somebody else is saying, but to put yourself in a position where you're able to hear and listen what somebody else is going through, I would hope gives us some understanding, and it's from understanding that we can actually relate and bring some, some change, positive change in our world.

Tim Buxton 

So well said, and that was what I was going to say step two is so put yourself in that position. Secondly, when you are in that position, instead of having an opinion, instead of being the one talking, I've always, you know, been reminded, we've got two ears and one mouth for a reason, right? We should do twice as much, if not more listening than we do. Speaking and really learning and you've had, you've been in that situation where you've lived most of your adult life in another culture, which, which it's not just the the verbal, observable cultural differences. There's the unspoken cultural differences. There's the the deep seated, like, this is who we are, and I just have that being part from this part of the world or being growing up in this culture that you have to learn. And understand that takes decades. How is that kind of how is like living in that experience? In, you know, from the vantage point of trying to provide education and empowerment amongst disadvantaged people? How important has that been to have that posture to have that kind of approach to what you do? 

Jill Lovell 

Really important? Of course, I think one of the great advantages of putting yourself in another culture or a situation that you're not familiar with, is you can see your own culture and your own normal. When you can't, when you're in it, yes. to, to say to Australians, that you guys should be grateful, you know, because so many people around the world don't have what you have, unless those Australians can step out and step into something else and see Oh, okay, actually, this is, this is what's different. This is how I see the world. This is, yes, the experience that I've had, it's very difficult to do it from inside, you can't do it. No. So I've had the great advantage of stepping out of my culture and stepping into another culture, living in another culture for a very long time. And making that transition back and forth between the two, which is not easy. The first time I went to Mozambique, I went for almost to about a year and a half about 18 months. And I went on a one way ticket I was I think 23 Yeah, my parents were not thrilled with that decision, of course. But, you know, I immersed myself in the culture there. And when I came back to Australia, I found it very, very difficult to reconcile what I had experienced and the differences in not, as you say, not just the outward poverty, but the way people live and the differences in our values, I think, particularly around the individualistic culture we have in Australia, and the communal culture that you might see in many other parts of the world. So stepping back into Australian culture and having to accept that this, this culture is also valid. And this culture is also a way of doing things. It's not necessarily all right, and all wrong, right? It's not black and white. Yeah, exactly. It's not, um, and then being able to go between two different worlds in some ways of a good friend in Mozambique, who used to say that when he's in America, he's American is in America. And that's where he is. And when he's in Mozambique is in Mozambique. That's where he is, and to try and judge one culture based on another. Is it not a helpful way not to leave and it's not the right way to live because they're their trades in, you know, cultures. So, yeah, I've had the advantage of going back and forth and being able to think you're on the best of both worlds in some ways. I love

Tim Buxton 

You know, it, you've got to throw yourself in that situation, like you said, quite often, and we can do it here in Australia. We don't have to go overseas. I mean, the work that I'm involved in with you belong, there's refugees Have former refugees that have now resettled in Australia have been here for less than six months, you know, a year now with the restrictions of people coming in. And yet, you know, they're a part of our culture, they're, they're welcomed here. And there's opportunities if you're in a larger city, a capital city in Melbourne, or Sydney or Brisbane, you're going to be surrounded, even, you know, here on the Gold Coast, we are a multicultural nation, we were there's so many opportunities that we have to just our neighbors, for goodness sake. And that's the hardest thing, isn't it? We don't, we don't do very well, kind of like, we drive into our driveways. And we say hi to our neighbor and wave. But do we really know them? Do we really know our neighbor? Do we really know those that are just a part of our like, you know, social group that that we all kind of have might have a lot of in common with, which is natural to kind of surround yourself with people that are like you, but you don't have to go overseas. One of the things I find that I found at least when I spent time living abroad was it's, it's humbling. Right?

Jill Lovell 

Absolutely, that's the word that I was thinking about.

Tim Buxton 

You don't know the language. Yeah. You constantly making mistakes, you constantly Miss reading something. And you just feel like you're just shooting yourself in the foot time and time again and off. And until someone graciously reminds you, I lived in New York for almost 10 years. And that's a culture in and of itself. And you'll learn quickly that, 

Jill Lovell 

Yes, yeah. Think about for all of those that have come to Australia as refugees, or, you know, in other forms of as migrants. And what you have felt when you go into this other culture is what they are feeling coming here. 100%, even though I have a good friend from Mozambique, who spent a few years in Australia, doing her master's on a scholarship, and even understanding the rubbish bin system here, because she had to do you know, what are they? What do I do? And where do you put your rubbish and that kind of, like, there's so many things that are different about about cultures. And if we, as Australians, are able to help somebody else as they come to our country to understand the way things work here and understand the way things may work, where they come from, I think I think we can have some really deep and rich culture within our shores here. 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, 100% we got so much, there's so much richness, there's so much to experience, just, you know, in our own neighborhoods, we're certainly missing out when we when we kind of don't step out, put ourselves in those situations. You know, what you shared kind of reminded me of this experience of this was one girl from I don't know, she was from Africa. I don't know which country she was from. But she was sitting in the lunchroom of the office that she was working at. She'd only recently come over. And she, she everyone would be like, why do you eat lunch alone all the time. in, in, in, in the lunch room? You know, we asked you to come out to lunch and you always politely say no, it's okay. And, and,and, and after a while of this happening, she was you know, really alone and didn't really feel like she was being accepted by that, that staff community. And we'll she's like, well, you only ever asked me one time, right? You know, in this culture, your wife refused the first time No, no, no, it's okay. Usually, by the third time, maybe even the second time if you're brave, that the offer is extended, that you would then say, Oh, I would love to Yes, I'd go. So because of this cultural difference of her wanting to be polite, and and refuse, you know, that initial invitation. Everyone was missing out. Everyone was missing out. And that's one tiny little example of you have of just some of the challenges there. And, yeah, empathy, understanding. Again, humility. Yeah. being humble, being curious, not judging when we see something different. Yeah, exactly. we're analyzing and judging most of the time, 

Jill Lovell 

yeah. And we can become uncomfortable, right? We're we're in a situation where we don't really know what the project protocols are. So it's much easier just to stick to what you know, and your way of doing things. But there is so much to be gained by building relationships, across cultures, across various social groups that you may not, you know, have mixed in before but you can learn so much and you can everyone can offer So much to the people around them. Step outside a little bit of where you normally are. I think there's so much to be gained.

Tim Buxton 

Let me tell you about one of our partners, freedom broadband. They are an incredible profit for purpose business. Freedom broadband is your all in one internet and telephone service provider, whether it's for your business, or your home. Now, their internet connection and spades are simply amazing. And they're in another league when it comes to the quality of their customer service. But here's what really sets them apart. When you switch to any of their services, they'll donate $5 every month to a nonprofit, AWS of your choice. As the founder of you belong, an Australian based nonprofit charity, one of the greatest challenges we face is fundraising. And I think I can speak for almost all leaders in the nonprofit world when I say that being able to have a residual income coming into your accounts to support your work is a dream come true. And unlike most nonprofits, our work is dependent on the generous support of individuals and groups that share our passion to empower refugees to integrate and thrive here in Australia. What that means is that we spend more time and energy, looking for ways to raise support. And what I desperately love to be doing is spending that time and our limited resources developing and growing, and many successful programs that we run. But here's where our friends at freedom broadband come in. You see, a few months back, I was on a 4g wireless connection at home through one of the largest phone and internet companies here in Australia. And each month, I was nervous about going over our usage, getting nasty Ville at the end. And I was working on a lot of the podcasting and videos at home and the speeds I was getting were just painfully debilitating. And I finally decided to give freedom broadband a call. And within two minutes, I was on the call with Graham completing my application. And within a week, I had completely switched over to their $79 month unlimited plan. And I can tell you firsthand, the service has been phenomenal. And I have a direct line to the customer service team whenever I have a question or need assistance. Now the studio and office where I work has switched over to freedom broadband as well. We're on their business plan, and we haven't looked back. And how cool is this little by little connection by connection. Ozzie owned and locally run freedom broadband is now actively supporting the great work of nonprofits, in communities all around us, Australia. Simply by switching your internet to freedom broadband, you can help transform the lives of those less fortunate and that's why I love these guys, get this head to freedom broadband.com.au and, quote justice matters on your application form. And they will donate $50 from the activation fee support justice matters that's going to enable us to continue this podcast and inspire the world where everyone belongs. That's freedom broadband.com.au say goodbye to expensive, mediocre Internet with poor customer service and how low to top notch internet service and the good feeling of knowing you're supporting a great course. Join freedom broadband today. Whoa, Justice matters. And let's partner together with the internet. that's helping to change the world.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, and this isn't just for the extroverts, right, absolutely love to step out. In fact, when you talk about listening, and learning what's most often the introverts in the room, right, that are the most effective? Yeah, doing it Well. 

Jill Lovell 

I think it's interesting to him, when I first felt called to go to Mozambique, I was quite young, I'd always felt that I should go to Africa from when I was very young missionary there. And then as I was at university, I started asking God, alright, where in Africa? Should I go? Because Africa is a big place. You can't just get on a plane and go to Africa. Sure. Some people may not know that, but you can't. There's many, many countries in Africa. So I started asking God where I should go. And it's one of the few times where I felt like there was an experience, right, showing me something and showing me a map and pointing to Mozambique. So I looked at Mozambique, and they speak Portuguese and they don't speak English as the poorest country in the world at the time. When I really felt the first few years I was there. God put me in a place where they don't speak English. So I would have to learn and listen. Because my natural tendency would be to come in and say, Okay, this is what we can do to fix these problems. This is, you know, my, my way of doing things, but I couldn't communicate my way of doing things or what I knew. I had to sit back and first of all, learn the language like In the culture, learn how things were done to then be able to offer anything wow itself. So that was a big challenge. But I think the right thing for me 

Tim Buxton 

The great, the great humiliator and humbler, language and not and not not not, yeah, not being able to be proficient in language really does make you dependent and dependent on others, which Yeah, 

Jill Lovell 

I'm sure you've got many stories. Yes. And I remember times, you know, using Chinese hand signals to communicate to somebody lost in a city and I just want to get their drawing in the sand trying to figure out where to go. It is very humbling. Yeah, yeah. 

Tim Buxton 

Wow. You mentioned, you mentioned this idea of, of, you know, you know, wanting to be the one coming in to help and serve. And it's kind of fitting that you come in and have to be humble. But, but we see a lot of, you know, one of the things I really wanted to kind of talk with you a bit about, as we kind of focus on justice and, and from an educator like yourself from someone that's taking education into one of the poorest countries in the world's trying to empower and elevate those that are disadvantaged. And doing that in a way that isn't done from that traditional, hey, I've got, I've got a program that you need. And I've got the money to, to kind of run the program, therefore, I have the voice and the power to be able to determine how to do things. Talk, because I think this is leading into a bit about your research, your research, right? So you're an educator, you're also now an academic and have been, and and really wanting to speak into that space, I mean, talk a bit more into the importance of really coming in, as a humble learner, of cultures of the other 

Jill Lovell 

Sure, so my research is looking at exactly that. So in my experience, we see a lot of organizations doing what you just said of coming in and saying we can offer some solutions to the problems you have. And often you find donors willing to give money to certain solutions to certain issues. And everyone comes in to try and help and fix something that's that's broken. And it's true, there's a there's a clear need, there's a big gap, a clear lack. What I'm interested to learn in my research is how we can ensure that the people that we're helping that their voices actually being heard in what the needs are and what the potential right solutions to those issues are. So how, how if there's an issue of a lack of water, what is the best way to bring water to that community, from the point of view of the people who actually live in the community? Sure, if it's an issue of education, how can we? How can we see that community making the changes themselves with a bit of support from the outside and kind of turning it upside down? And sure, giving the power and the voice to those that are actually going to be impacted, and live with the changes that are made by organizations? So I'm looking at exploring some of these issues of power dynamics across cultures and how the voices of participants can be heard and can be communicated, how we can empower and allow space, how we can amplify the voice of those that that are participants in the programs rather than just having this loud, powerful, money driven voice coming in and saying this is what we can do for you. 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. And well intentioned, but at the end of the day, can have quite the opposite. Long term impact. Absolutely. Yeah. paternalism. It builds a sense of dependency, look, we have the power, we have the resources, you have nothing. And it reinforces this sense of, I'm weak, I'm poor. Absolutely. I need. I need you. And, you know, there's many ways to talk about toxic charity or when helping hurts as lots of people talking around this. But what Yeah,

Jill Lovell 

 And there's also I think, kind of tokenistic. Let's hear from the participants what they thought of the program that that we offered them and right. Yeah, thanks very much. It was great. But could there have been a better way? Yeah. And I it comes back. I think, Tim to our what we were saying about humility, whether that's as an individual going to another individual person, in building relationship or whether that's as an organization trying to help a community. We need some humility to come in and say, Okay, I probably we may not know the best way to assist in this culture to assist you guys to make the changes that need to be made. So let us learn and listen from you. And perhaps we might have to change our strategy, perhaps we might have to rewrite the program that we were originally planned, or maybe we totally scrapped that and say, What's more, what's actually needed is something else that the community is talking about, which does require humility from us to say, okay, we may not have all of the answers.

Tim Buxton 

I find that fascinating, because you might be missing the golden opportunity to have an impact in a community, because you're stuck in your own way of thinking and doing things, which is being concocted and developed. In some other countries, some faraway place, you're just trying to dump somewhere else, right. And you could be missing the most valuable resources. When you say humility, it makes me think of we'd like to throw away the term empowerment around. And empowerment means the person with power, in a traditional sense, has to give up their power to give it allow somebody else to somebody else without Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Could be intellect, you know, you have the ideas, not just me, you have the insight. 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah, I think we can even extend it a little bit to say that everybody can still have some power. And like, there's, there's kind of almost infinite power. And each draw, we draw on the power. So in some contexts, some people draw on so much power that nobody else gets a chance. Yeah, she uses or they don't know how they haven't ever had the opportunity to grab some of that power for themselves. But if those of us that are often powerful in the situation, can let go a bit or show somebody else or at you also, can have a voice? You also can draw on? On the power in, you know, that's available. Yeah. And speak your voice? And I'm just gonna let go a bit. Yes. Yes. Not use up so much of what's around and let somebody else. Yeah, share. And, and as, as we voice as we allow people to express their voice and be heard. It does build some confidence and some self esteem to be able to say, right, well, not only can I express what what the needs are, but perhaps I can also be a part of making the change and bring a solution to the situation.

Tim Buxton 

Have you have there any been any experiences or situations that come to mind where you've kind of seen, like an aha moment within a group that you've worked with, where, where they've kind of, you know, been empowered to start something core to do so 

Jill Lovell 

I think a lot of my role over the years in organizations has been not so much directly with groups of communities, but with staff who are working with communities. And in Mozambican culture, there's very much a top down shots, Chief hierarchy, hierarchical culture. So you would always just do what you're told, and you don't ever step outside of doing what you're told. Whereas I've tried to create an environment for staff where they can give things ago and they can come up with some ideas and innovation. And yeah, they say, you know, I need to I need to do this particular thing, I will you go away and work out what you want to do, and come back to me and, and that's where I think I see staff thrive, because they've been given some power to make decisions for themselves and how they want to do their job. And at the end of the day, when you have the power, you also have the ownership right? Of the situation. And so they take responsibility, then when you're an owner, you have responsibility. If you're just like a renter, you know, you you, you kind of let things go. But if you have ownership of something, then you have responsibility for it. And I found that in this probably in any work situation, if you give people the opportunity to take ownership of the role they're doing, then they have the responsibility for and you don't have to be chasing them to try and do their job. They're saying, Okay, this is this is mine, I want to make sure that, that I do what's mine well, and that's been really encouraging to see a shift in culture within our team, which can be quite difficult when you're trying to bring in a different culture to say the societal culture, right? 

Tim Buxton 

It's almost like a third culture Yeah, there's you. Maybe that's the culture that you've come from, which is Western culture at say, then there's the Mozambican culture, but you're trying to forge a Hey, look, there's a there's an organizational culture, maybe 

Jill Lovell 

let's draw on the best Yeah, of all of these and let's try and create a culture where everyone can thrive and be that in a family Yes. In a classroom or in a work situation, let's, let's not just say one way, is the right way. But let's allow everybody to, to express their voice and see if we can create something really cool.

Tim Buxton 

It kind of comes back to that, that value of there isn't just one way there isn't just there's there's not there's a humility to say, Hey, there, there, it's black and white. Maybe I've got something to learn here. Maybe there's another way to do things. I love Your love your phrase, infinite power, I mean, thought the thought that, hey, there's infinite possibilities and infinite ways we can tap into, you know, that this solution and we all have something to bring, we all have something to offer. 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah. And I think from for me coming. I'm a Christian. And often I think in Christian culture, there is black and white, there is a right or wrong. And so when you start to talk about perhaps his other ways of doing things that people start to get quite uncomfortable talking about whether there's right and wrong, whether the you know, yeah, from a moral 

Tim Buxton 

moralistic point, we were talking earlier, right, like, about, you know, we like to point out in maybe cultures where, where bribery or some form of of nepotism seems very obvious and apparent in our culture, and can often be in, in, in a, in a in an Eastern culture where, you know, honor or shame or this sense of obligation to your family, kind of supersedes from moral level, the duty that you have to preserve and honor within your family can supersede some of the more you know, what we would sell lying or cheating or black, black and white kind of things, but we can easily judge another culture. Yeah, without, like you saying it our own. We're oblivious to the take a phrase of Jesus, right, a plank in our own arm, and the nepotism that exists in our Western culture, and the the, the corruption that exists in our government, and the systemic injustices that exist in our systems. 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah, absolutely. We can just ignore it. We can. That's our way of doing things. And I think we've blurred, So coming back to Christian culture, we've learned what's Western and what's your Christian or biblical? Yeah. And they become one in the same and so when we try and take a Christian culture somewhere, we we take a Western culture, right, can we separate that out and say, Okay, what what is what of this is just Christian? And what is actually Yeah, what what is the word of God and work? 

Tim Buxton 

I mean, let's take it Hey, if we're going to be honest, what's colonialist? Ik its nature, what's what's very imperialistic in its nature. Because quite a lot is diametrically opposed. So I would say if you are, would call yourself a Christian is diametrically opposed to the way of Jesus. Absolutely. You know, absolutely. Anyway, we could, we can open go home, and other people might turn us off saying, Yeah, go do bad on this. But hey, this is this is about this is I guess what? This is about having honest conversations.

Jill Lovell 

And for me, I think I would encourage all of us to just at least ask those questions. Yeah. And to stop and say, just okay, the way I do this, or the way I think about this, or the way I treat certain people, is this really the right way? Or is this just the way that that was? Yeah. Is my culture and yeah, perhaps it's colonial? Yeah, just stop and ask some questions. 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. Again, humility. I'd love to talk a bit about your research that you're moving into, in particular, providing healthy and helpful and, and evaluation of organizations that are doing work. Can you kind of elaborate a bit more on what your goals are? 

Jill Lovell 

I think it's about trying to find ways of communication and dialogue at the end of the day, between organizations and the people that they're serving. You know, an organization might come to a community and see some needs, but how can we ensure that the people in that community are having their voice heard, are able to express their voice and are able to communicate back to the organization? How can the organization and the community work together really as one to solve the issues that might exist, and how can the organization's learn from the people that they're serving? how can how can we see some changes in the power imbalances that exist in the the imbalances of voice as well that how can we amplify the voice of, of the beneficiary, some might call them defensive programs and have organizations truly serving the needs of the community, yet, we both work with nonprofit organizations, and there's a  finite amount of money, there might be an infinite amount of power, but there's a finite goodness amount of money and resources available. So don't we want to make sure that that finite, that small bit of resource we have is going to make the biggest difference and the best difference, the right impact, meet the real needs, and not just the needs that somebody has perceived? Right? Or that, you know, on the surface level, a community might see a particular need, but let's work together and dig deep to say what is the best way to make change, and improve the situation where then for community, 

Tim Buxton 

you know, and for most people that are involved in this kind of work, they've got an awesome heart. They are a helper, they just want to serve, they just want to do something, they're volunteering their time, they're giving them money, their energy, their effort. And so it's not discounting the fact that there aren't people that want to roll up their sleeves and get something done. But so often, we can rush into trying to help in rushing to try and do and run programs. And I've got this idea. And I've got that, what you're saying is, what if you just kind of took a deep breath, which is just so hard for the doers out there, right? It's so hard for the helpers out there, right? And there's a time right emergencies, we see how Aussie's come together and volunteer and serve whenever in an emergency strikes the bushfires. And even in COVID, we've seen volunteer in Queensland and other organizations that accept volunteers, people just come and serve. And we see loads of churches get involved, and just all organizations, rotary, we've done so many, so many partnerships with people, not discounting all of them, but what you're saying is, we want to make sure you're actually helping you really actually helping rise, right and in, if we were as an organization, or as an individual, right, wanting to serve a community, as disenfranchised, disadvantaged, if I would actually say the biggest asset and resource is that actual person absolute, rather than what I can get for them. And if I were to take the time, bring him back to what we started talking about listening. Yeah, and learning and mining, and empowering and, and, and, and amplifying that greatest asset that is before me.  Absolutely. How much better off would be would be doing, you know,

Jill Lovell 

yeah, but to facilitate the, the change that they need and want for themselves. I'm not a parent, Tim, but I see many children, I'm a teacher, yeah, and you're a parent. So if you recognize a need in your own child, or you know, one of your children has a particular area they want to get involved with in the future where they want to what they want to be, what you do is you facilitate that, that child becoming the person that they're being called to be right, fulfilling their potential. So they're great with art or something like that. So you get them into art classes you facilitate, you don't actually do the artwork for them, you facilitate them becoming what they want to be right. So if we can do the same as organizations, wow, find out what it is that these people can be one to be one to do. Yes. And then facilitate that to happen. Coming back to Jesus, again, you know, being that servant and coming along and beside and behind even Yeah, not coming on top down. But just being that little hand behind saying, yep, I can help push you along in the direction that you need to go that perhaps there's quite a lot of barriers in front of you, stopping you from getting there. Right. But my role is actually to help you overcome those barriers and get through that course not, not, you know, be there at the end. I'll just pick you up and drop you there and do it for you. 

Tim Buxton 

True leadership. I heard he said is is going in front and removing all the obstacles out of the way of of those who you're called to lead, right. Like how can I clear the runway so you can take off? Yeah, right. How can I facilitate right? Yeah, exactly. So that you can actually do everything. That's inside of you and that requires, I believe, and have like, a sense of believing in in them and having dignity 

Jill Lovell 

And putting in people, what will enable them to overcome any obstacles that they might rise along the way? Like we, we won't always be there to take the obstacles away? Sure. So how can we help people know that they they actually can overcome it themselves and putting the skills and the resilience or the, you know, what's needed in them to walk? They have, you know, for the rest of their lives, we don't know how long as leaders were involved in somebody's life. Right. So let's take the opportunity while we're with them, to teach them how to use them and walk with them on a journey. And yeah, walk humbly with them. 

Tim Buxton 

Wow, that that's phenomenal. You know, that's why think education is so key to justice. Absolutely. Because just education is it's teaching somebody, like you said, not removing for them the obstacles, kind of my short sighted analogy, but it's taking that that step further and saying, I am actually going to empower you to be able to remove the obstacle yourself, because you're going to be on your own one day, kind of take that idea of facilitating for your own kids, while you want to do it to the point where they they're going to be adults one day, and they're going to they're going to be on their own right, and they don't need you interfering and making things possible, you've hopefully done a good enough job. Yeah, equipping them and education is that because when you don't educate, it's like, you keeping someone in the dark my, yeah, I was always my morning routine is a bit of a meditation in a cold pool, and that, I thoroughly enjoy that and, and I definitely recommend trying getting into an ice cold bath in the morning. And as I was listening, I listened to kind of like a spoken word poet, actually, at the moment named David Whyte. And he was talking about language and how language often is we teach language as an abstract thing like glass. But when we first learn language languages, is in it's, it's, it's something we experience and encounter, rather than just an abject thing like, on, you know, putting a sticker on everything and just naming it, it's something that we've experienced. And that's another way language is powerful. Now, it reminded me if the first word my daughter spoke, when we English word, my daughter spoke when we were living in Kurdistan Region of Iraq, and the word was power. Because every day, we would literally have power for like, five hours a day, and then we'd go on this, like really low power generator for another, like 10 hours of the day. But quite often, you know, it was always around like, dinnertime, we'd have no power drove my wife crazy, because she's trying to cook and, and you don't have power, and it's getting dark, and you just got, you know, like, flashlights everywhere. And, and but every time the lights would come on, you we would all scream, yeah, wherever we were at the house power, you know, it was just this like, epiphany every day that we'd have. And, you know, how we remember the lights came on. And suddenly my daughter said, power, you know, and, and again, this idea of language in an experience and, but to take it to kind of where I'm going with that is, is when you don't educate someone, you're keeping them in the dark. You're not allowing them to have that lightbulb moment of, aha, I know this. I'm not just teaching someone memory and rote, and they're not experiencing and when you do education properly, you are empowering somebody 

Jill Lovell 

And everyone has the ability to have the aha moment, right. Everyone has the capacity to learn and I think, yeah, it's just because of a lack of education or lack of opportunity yet people may not be where they where they could be where their potential is. Yeah, they're kept in the dark. You know, the Dark Ages, we call it you know, and it's for lack of wanting to see others succeed. Absolutely. Others it's so much easier to kind of like keep people subservient to us we hold on the power control when others aren't. Yeah, that must be so challenging in a in a country like Mozambique, which is for so long been just seen as as as you know from the outside. Yes, amazing. Being around education has had a really challenging history. It was a Mozambique was colonized by the Portuguese Yeah, and there's a horrific history of the way local Mozambicans were treated and they weren't allowed to go to school above grade three, no way for many, many, many, many, many years. So it wasn't until the 60s where there was a war between the Mozambicans and the Portuguese, the Portuguese were kicked out of the country. But then Mozambique went straight into a civil war for more than 20 years. So there's generations and generations that did not receive any education and then decades of war, where it was almost impossible to get an education because people were hiding in the bush from from the war. So it wasn't really until the mid 90s, when it started to be some education happening across the country. And so we have, you know, whole generations of family over two decades. Yeah, so one of our key programs that mission educate is an adult literacy program. Wow, teaching adults who miss the opportunity. Women who, you know, weren't didn't have the opportunity to go to school, young guy, young, when I say young, like in there, maybe in their 30s. Guys who, because of the war, didn't get a chance to go to school. So teaching them to read and write, and empowering them then Wow, to, to go on with, you know, what it is they want to do with their life. And I remember asking some of the women early on, like, why are you in this course. And they, they would often talk about the humiliation that comes with being illiterate. women would say like, I go to a building, and there's a sign that says don't do not enter, but I don't, I can't read it. So I go in somewhere. And then people laugh at me because I'm not meant to be there. Or, you know, I just can't, they can't read. That's something I never even thought of, or you know, there's a form they need to sign and they can't even sign their name. So they have to do a fingerprint. And it's quite humiliating to say, I can't even write my own name. So for them, it was about self confidence and empowerment of themselves to be able to be a part of the society that was going on around them, rather than being excluded, just because they couldn't read and write. Um, yes, I think education is hugely important for justice and community's 

Tim Buxton 

Dignity. Absolutely. I mean, that person has immense value. And because of, of the circumstances beyond their control, they don't, aren't afforded the human dignity that they deserve to function in, in the society, that area. 

Jill Lovell 

And I think, for me, that's part of why I went in the first place. I recognize Now perhaps I didn't, back then. But I had the opportunity of a great education. Yeah. And, you know, why, why, why me? Why do I get that and somebody else just because of where they born? Doesn't? To me that that doesn't seem just or fair. All right. So if I can, why not help somebody else access, the education that will enable them to, to, to do what it is they want to do with their life? 

Tim Buxton 

I think I think anybody that wants to get involved in serving needs to spend a couple hours with you, you know, probably learned some of you from your own mistakes and your own learnings along the way. But we have so much, we've been so privileged, we have so much. And there is that sense of responsibility, that you carry that I think, I think, the the entire western world, really, to a certain degree, there's a responsibility, we have to, to, to really serve, we come alongside those not out of a sense again, of paternalism, you need me, but in a sense of, of, of responsibility, I think of I'm always very much passionate about displaced people. And I think of the very reasons that people are displaced today are because of quite often Western intervention, and the developed world with climate change through you know, famines and droughts, greed and greed and capitalism and oil and mining and all these these Yep, colonialism, right. expansion. Right. And we see the effects that often and war then that results right. It's humanity's fault, collectively. Yes, we are. We are our own. But when we see the ways we've, we have our input implicated in in the displacement of people around the world, we have a responsibility, absolutely do something about it, but not just do it from our vantage point. But like you said, do it in a way that that prioritizes the beneficiaries that you're serving. 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah. That one advantage team of learning in other languages, you get a different perspective on certain things. And in the Bible, it talks about justice, right? In our English Bibles, the word justice is often talked about as righteousness. Yeah, especially in the New Testament, we read a lot about righteousness. Now, in Portuguese, there isn't a word righteousness. It's all justice, justice. And if you if you start to read some of those passages, where it uses the word righteousness, if you replace that, with the word justice, I think you'll get a slightly different perspective on on what, what, just that? So to me, like, righteousness is quite a personal internal thing, right? You know, being right. Right? right with God, whereas justice has a much more outward and societal communal, you know, slant to it in my understanding, I think our kind of English understanding, so, for me, experience learning that in in Portuguese, that Okay, let's, let's, I cannot do away with personally being right with God. But let's put that aside for a minute. And where we see righteousness, let's see it as Justice. And let's not take it away from all being about me personally, with God or me personally, or internally, and let's take it a bit more external. And think about justice. And think about the people around me and thinking about being right. Not just with God, but with everybody around right, helping those people, as well find justice, and a right relationship with God. I think it really helped change my perspective on on what you know what justice truly justice is, yeah, what what it truly is. 

Tim Buxton 

Wow. So good. I think we, I mean, we could draw so many more analogies You've made me think of, of, you know, whenever Jesus spoke about loving God, he often said, it actually looks like loving neighbor, it actually looks like not just loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, enemy, right. And those and when when enemy, it quite often just means someone that's different, someone that might be perceived as the other. And, and I love that, broadening it away from this very individualistic, may centered, you know, way of living to a very corporate other centered and you're doing just that, I'm excited. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to hear about, you know, the impact, you know, we're, we're lucky to have you here in Australia for this season. And I love that you're developing investing in, in, in learning and growing and being able to be a greater resources to charities like you belong, and others out there that are trying to, to, you know, serve in the communities that we we have here and so appreciate, look forward to hearing the findings that are there any other ways people can call learn about your work or what you've done or get in touch with you? 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah, I'm on most of the social media. Yeah, I can give you that info. Tim, put that in the show notes. Um, so and I'm at the moment with mission educate. You can probably find missioneducate.org online. Yeah, but feel free to get in touch with me and, and explore. Explore. Yeah, reaching out. 

Tim Buxton 

And yeah, I enjoy your QUT class. Is it too late to join in?

Jill Lovell 

probably, but I can certainly recommend looking at a cpns. Yeah, we're both studying. Yeah, I'm researching through. And there's some great courses there some post grad stuff that you're doing, Tim and I'm doing a Master of Philosophy at the moment. There's other courses you can access there and the whole team there. Yeah, really useful resource for anyone working with not for profits or fundraising or anything. Exactly. With organizations definitely. Get in touch with us. 

Tim Buxton 

They're brilliant. Ruth Craig. Wendy. There's so many on that team that are phenomenal.

Jill Lovell 

Yeah, I'm excited to be a part of it. 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. Oh, it's good. Well, thanks so much again. 

Jill Lovell 

Thanks for having me.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, catching up and all the best with all that you've got going on? 

Jill Lovell 

Yeah. I love what you're doing. Tim, I think you know, both of us found ourselves here. Had to pivot a bit with Yeah, we say But yeah, wherever you if you've had to make a change, then just jump into it and keep walking forward. 

Tim Buxton 

I love that. Yeah, that's anybody listening, the word for 2020 was like pivot wasn't it? But I mean, at the end of the day, like Is the perspective that you can sometimes bring in and we hope that you're able to find any, any ways that you can learn Jill's here she'd love. I'm sure love to answer any questions you have. And same same here, reach out. Thanks again. 

Jill Lovell 

Thank you, Tim. Okay.