Episode 24: Ben Doherty — Award-Winning Journalist Sees Justice as an Act of Imagination

Ben Doherty is an award-winning journalist who has worked with The Age, The Sydney Morning Herald, and most recently, The Guardian. Ben has won three Walkley awards for his foreign and immigration reporting. And for those who do not know, the Walkley awards are the pinnacle of achievement for any Australian journalist. He is also a three-time United Nations Media Peace Awards recipient, whose reporting has had significant impact in highlighting injustices throughout the world.

He has written stories about child labour that have seen children freed from bonded labour and placed in schools. He has highlighted abuses within the immigration detention centres that have led to parliamentary inquiries and changes in government policies.

Before starting out on his two-decade long successful career as a journalist, Ben pursued his dream to become a professional Aussie Rules player, where he played for AFL clubs the Brisbane Lions and Melbourne Demons.

As you will discover in this interview, Ben is a University of Oxford alumni and also a gradute of the Conservatorium of Music, with the drums being his instrument of choice. During his time abroad, it wasn't unusual to find Ben playing with a band in a local club or pub.

In fact, it was a chance meeting with a local musician whilst on assignment in India, the inspired Bens launch onto the literary world with his enthralling debut novel, Nagaland — set in the far north-east of India.

These days you can find Ben in Bondi, Sydney, with his wife and two children, where he serves as the Pacific Editor for the Guardian — reporting on issues of importance to the island states of the Pacific region and also around the world, with a particular focus on investagtions into issues around climate change, environmental degradation and human rights abuses.

Online you can follow and contact Ben on Twitter @bendohertycorro, you can also grab a copy of his latest novel, Nagaland at Amazon.

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Full Transcript

Ben Doherty 

We are dealing with some of the greatest challenges humanity's ever faced, you know, in terms of displacement, in terms of climate change. And these are complex and difficult things, and they're not going to be easily solved. So it kind of requires a bit of heavy lifting to get in and to kind of really understand these things. And not everyone's going to agree with my point of view, not everyone's gonna agree with yours. And that's fine because we live in a democracy, but we do need to learn how to disagree again. And I think a way to do that is to expose yourself to other arguments, read widely and be and and read critically with a view of, well who is telling me this and why are they telling me this and what's the position they're coming from. And once you start doing that, it becomes quite clear, the the kind of rationale behind information being put out so that you can understand. You can see pretty clearly what's misinformation and what's designed to manipulate. But it does require a bit of work.

Tim Buxton 

Welcome to Justice Matters, the podcast inspiring a world where everyone belongs. I'm your host, Tim Buxton. Today's guest on the podcast is the Pacific editor for The Guardian, Ben Doherty. Now I met Ben back in 2015, I had returned with my family for a brief trip back from Iraq, where we were living at the time. And he was so intrigued by what we were doing over there in the face of the ISIS crisis, caring for families that had fled, that he actually wrote an article on our members sitting in his home in bond die with his family around and as we shared and talked, and I really felt such a connection actually with Ben and was really just excited to be able to now be able to turn the tables on him, and get him on the podcast and hear his story and what has influenced his life. He's someone that has spent his career two decades now sharing about issues of human rights and injustice around the world. As a result, he was awarded three Walkley awards, one of the highest honors in journalism in Australia, as well as three United Nations media peace awards, again, an incredible honor for anyone working in this craft in the area of journalism, here in Australia. And as we talk and discuss many issues surrounding human rights issues, and just in general, the whole idea of using journalism using your voice, to shed a light on injustice and hopefully bring freedom, I know that you're going to be inspired to use whatever you've got in your hands. Without further ado, here's my discussion with Ben Delta.

Ben Doherty 

Journalism had, I don't want to be too sort of strong about it. But there is a there is a kind of vocational element into journalism like it, you know, telling stories is a very fundamental human condition, the way we relate to others, the way we understand that, you know, a complex and capricious world is to kind of put narratives around things and to give things a story arc and to give things and understanding and, and journalism sites that to a degree, you know, why is this happening? Why is there this conflict? Why, why is this happening in this place? and journalism seeks to answer those questions. So there's something kind of very sort of atavistic, and fundamental about journalism, I'd always grown up in news in house in a house that my parents read newspapers, both from Australia and overseas. We watched, you know, the ABC News religiously at seven o'clock every night. And this is the days before, you know, iPads or computers, I couldn't go and watch my own thing on Netflix. That was abc news every night. So I grew up with a sense of the ice flows. And again, I I don't want to wait on this too heavily. But that sort of fourth state role of journalism and the importance of, of media and journalism and and the role of journalism in a democratic society and holding, holding governments to account in you know, in in revealing matters of public interest, I suppose. So I had perhaps maybe an idealistic, you know, idea about around what journalism was. But it always interested me because it seemed to me that journalism gave you a kind of front row seat to sort of absolutely extraordinary happenings, you know, you've got to see fascinating people doing extraordinary and deeply powerful and important things. And you got a front row seat and you got to ask questions about and to write about it. You know, I was just reflecting this week with this, the dreadful coup in Myanmar, that I was in Myanmar in 2010 when Ang Sung Sui Chi was released from house arrest by members. I remember standing at the barricades when the military dropped the barricades and running the 400 meters or so with you know, surrounded by Myanmarese people screaming Dorsu also running to the front gate being at the front gate and being very aware at the time, you know, all the while trying to write notes and write my copy for that for the next day's paper, but being supremely conscious that, you know, this was history being made. And you know, you kind of had a had a had a front row seat to it and we can, you know, reflect on on on Dorsey's behavior and action seems better, yeah, but I suppose, that sense of, of helping to write in very rough terms, you know, that that first draft of history, as they, as they kind of call journalism felt to me to be a hugely, you know, intoxicating thing to do, like, a fascinating, a fascinating profession. So I kind of fell into journalism, you know, completely by accident I, I saw there was a cadetship not by accident, quite deliberately, but in a kind of slightly backdoor manner. And that I saw there was a cadetship, advertised at the Bendigo advertiser, and I got in my car from Melbourne and drove up to Bendigo and knocked on the editor's door and said, I mean, you could get, and he kind of said, he said, that's very funny, you can put your, you know, your CV on the pile, and I said, Look, I'm going to be in town for a week. I'm going to Can I bring you some stories, and I brought him stories to awaken at the end of the week, he gave me the job. And so, you know, from there, I went from Bendigo, to Canberra to Melbourne and then overseas. And so you just kind of keep looking for the next story, I suppose. And it sort of unfolded from there.

Tim Buxton 

Mate. You know, as you kind of just sharing, you know, your journey into journalism, what drew you into almost that idealistic, you know, front row seat, telling the truth, holding people to account, being part of change in society, you know, writing the narratives, telling the stories that need to be told, it seems, however, there's like, at least from my perspective, with the rise of misinformation and journalism seems to be in a crisis to a certain degree, and how does that make someone like you feel who's like dedicated their life to it? What is some of the what would you tell listeners, you know, in this moment, is so is the most important thing, especially within the world of German journalism.

Ben Doherty 

I don't think it's too strong to say the journal in journalism is in crisis, and it's in crisis on a number of fronts, certainly on the sort of business level, which which lots of people talk about, about how the industry kind of survives and is liable, but even on a more existential level, that existential level about what its purpose is, and, and the way journalism is performed, because we have seen this democratization of information sources, and that, in lots of ways, is a great thing that everybody now is allowed to be part of the public debate, you know, the, the kind of idea of the ancient Greek idea of the for, you know, that the town square where, where ideas can be debated. And that, that, that really old fashioned kind of sense, a bit of a contest of ideas, is now open to everyone. It's not just open to newspaper barons, or, or people on TV stations. So in lots of ways that democratization of information is, is a is a great and powerful thing, but you can also see how powerful it is when it is deliberately misused for misinformation to to you know, promote hate speech to, to promote dangerous medical messages, which, you know, which is what, what we're seeing in the world now, but, you know, but used by people to manipulate others, and, you know, to to incite a, you know, insurrection over. So, so, it is it is I mean, and again, you know, we mentioned when we were talking before we started the recording to him, about you know, with with great power comes great responsibility, there is power, in words, there is power and information, and it does need to be used. It does need to be used carefully, and it does need to be used with it with with an understanding of, of, of its power. And this is not to say that journalism should be strictly regulated, and, you know, a government or some sort of authority should be able to say your journal, if you're not a journal, your journal if you're not. But the but i think i think there is a responsibility on those of us who do practice journalism and call ourselves journalists to do it in a responsible fashion. And people might not agree with everything I write or everything that the Guardian says. But the idea is that information is presented in good faith and with rigor and with an idea of informing the public with an idea of contributing in a meaningful way to that, to that contest of ideas. I think people putting information to the world doesn't deliberately time to mislead people or incite violence or incite hatred is hugely damaging and and needs to be called out and needs to be condemned when whenever it's seen and needs to be kind of squashed you know, as as hard as possible and, and countered very, very quickly. Now, it's very easy for me and you to see it and say that's all we need to stop this information. But you know, the old Churchill quote about the lie being halfway around the world by the time the truth thing exactly like it is, it's a really difficult thing to do. And I think What that then leads us to is well, what do you know? And I don't love the word consumers. But but but people who are reading news and reading news online and those sort of things, what can they do to sort of, you know, I suppose to prevent the spread of misinformation, and to prevent themselves being misled by this? And my answer to that is to read widely and to read critically, to read lots of new source right answer read, to read new sources that you don't think you're going to agree with, you know, get outside your bubble, read opposing ideas and debates, and be prepared to kind of sort of do the hard work in your own mind to work through these things. We are dealing as, as a global community and as national societies and a smaller communities, we are dealing with some of the greatest challenges humanity's ever faced, you know, in terms of displacement in terms of climate change. And these are complex and difficult things and they're not going to be easily solve. So it kind of requires a bit of heavy lifting to get in. And to kind of really understand these things. And not everyone's going to agree with my point of view, not everyone's gonna agree with yours. And that's fine, because we live in a democracy, but we do need to learn how to disagree again. And I think a way to do that is to expose yourself to other arguments, read widely and be and and read critically with a view of law who was telling me this, why are they telling me this and what's the position they're coming from. And once you start doing that, it becomes quite clear, the the kind of rationale behind the information being put out so that you can understand, you can see pretty clearly what's misinformation and what's designed to manipulate, buddy, it does require a bit of work.

Tim Buxton 

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Ben Doherty 

I mean, and maybe that's part of the kind of, you know, democratic obligation that you have to be an informed and contributing member of your society, you know, to be that that informed citizen is to is to kind of you are obliged to kind of do your due diligence, I suppose, on these issues that the world is wrestling with.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, you know, I think that that element of, of curiosity we were talking about earlier of there's, there's so many ways to look at an object, you could look at it from the side, you could look at it like this. And as you as you do, expose yourself, again, to being well read, being critical, analyzing and that critical in the sense of being curious, you know, don't just take something at face value. wrestle with it. And, I mean, it's just brought such an enrichment, and in growth in my own life, as I've, I've allowed my own echo chambers to be blown apart, right. And what I think that's the scary thing is, we see so many echo chambers growing and developing and, and the danger can be to go from one echo chamber to another echo chamber to as well. So you change your views, but then you just become so engrossed and absorbed in where you've got to there, it's that ability to foster and to hold the tension of the of quite a lot of things.

Ben Doherty 

That sort of cognitive dissonance of of differing worldviews and a different way. Yeah, and you're right, and the kind of solidifying walls around those echo chambers are getting harder and harder, they're getting hard to get out of, and, this kind of, you know, and if, if you exist in one, and don't know anything about the other, you know, they inexorably sort of drift apart. And then all of a sudden, when you're trying to debate something, it becomes really difficult. And people have always had, you know, political disagreements, but in in past generations, it feels to me as though we've been working from a kind of funding, you know, a foundational base of understanding of what reality is, but because we're getting so deep into these echo chambers, our realities are becoming our worldviews are becoming so difficult that we are so different, rather that we find it very difficult to kind of recognize the other we find it very difficult to accept another's worldview where and to sort of recognize another's humanity. And that that leads that leads us I think, down a very difficult path. And so, you know, to get to your broader theme of justice, and I've been sort of rolling around in my head the last few days, and one of the words that I that that sort of came out, and people talk about justice in in terms of, you know, and they think of it in terms of equality, in terms of fairness, and all those sorts of things are absolutely correct. But the other word that came into my mind was imagination. And it struck me as a sort of slightly odd thought, and, and I sort of interrogated it a little bit more but, but justice as an act of imagination, I think really interests me having the sort of the imagination and the courage as well to sort of consider another person's perspective to see what the world looks like, from their point of view, to be able to imagine yourself from from somebody else's perspective, I think, is a really powerful tool. And that's a that's a really interesting way to find the a just solution, I have an idea about something, you have a contradictory view about it. I can't see what how you would arrive at your position until I have the imagination to put myself in your shoes and from your perspective. And to be able to be able to see the world from your point of view. So I think in terms of finding justice in in terms of finding, you know, a just an equitable and fair solution for some of the world's great problems we need to be able to imagine ourselves in and others place and that's somebody else in my community who I might not not agree with, that somebody else in another country that som ebody else who from another culture, someone who's whose background is completely different to mine. I need to have the imagination to be able to, to see their world as well as understand mine.

Tim Buxton 

That reminds me of a quote by Bernie Brown who says it's easy to it's it's hard to hate people. It's hard to hate people up close. And it's this idea of when you listen to someone's story, their experience like you said, you put yourself in someone's shoes you imagine yourself in their story. There's Yeah, it's very difficult to be in different it's very difficult to not care it's very difficult to not see things in for your own opinion stones worldview to not be challenged and changed and that is the beauty. I think that I love it journalism, it's going into some of the most difficult, horrendous stories. I watched the four corners documentary on the way guards in game changing. And I don't know if I pronounced that right. But it was, again, just as I've kind of lived amongst the Yazidi genocide that took place it took me back to this has happening again, this has been happening and is happening elsewhere, we don't know. And listening to the stories, listening to the personal accounts and struggles of some of these, those that have been able to escape, it compels me to this, I cannot not do anything I can I can't not unknow this anymore, I can't not. I can choose to ignore it and move on. But it's left, I think that was one of my heroes, William Wilberforce talks about this, you cannot not do something about it once you've once

Ben Doherty 

Once you know, and there is a real watershed moment. And once you've been exposed, it's like you say you can't unknow those things. And, and, and you are compelled to do things. I thought that that earlier quote from Brown was a really interesting one, it's hard to hate people up close and those. And I think that that can be one of journalism's most, most powerful attributes is to be able to tell those personal stories to be able to reduce kind of not, not reduced, but but explain broad difficult issues in the singular in the personal can be incredibly powerful. And it is possible then to understand another person's story, if you've heard their personal account their personal situation, and you can you can relate to that. It's very hard to relate to a sort of large amorphous mob of people, you know, but But yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You know, certain statistics sort of wash over us like a wave and don't mean anything, but that one person story that one family saw that one child story can, can see and resonate with us. And I think that's one of the dangerous things we've seen in this country, and in others around issues like asylum seekers and refugees, this this idea that the language is dehumanizing and distancing, and it reduces people to this sort of amorphous, unknowable and potentially threatening mob. So we jump in. Yeah, and we hear about waves of migrants and or, you know, and, and we talk about floods of illegals, and this sort of hugely pejorative language, whereas these are all individual people. And and once you get to know those individual stories, those barriers break down very quickly. And it's always the case where, you know, When, when, when, when countries are talking about issues around migration and these sorts of things. It's sort of like, I don't like migrants, but are the Bangladeshis down the street I love you know, they're, you know, they, they're great families. I think once you get to know people, it's all of those, all of those barriers fall down. And so I think we need to be really careful around, you know, we're talking about misinformation, those sort of things and the kind of deliberate use of language to kind of manipulate public understanding of things. You know, we've, we've, we've seen in Australia, you know, we don't have asylum seekers arriving anymore. We have illegals, we don't have any immigration apart, we have a Border Protection Force, all of these sort of semantic changes, do you think? Well, they're just word sort of think that they do change people's fundamental understanding of what's happening. And I think you need and that goes to that language is powerful. Yeah, absolutely. words make worlds. And so when you're, you know, as we're talking about reading critically before, that's part of it is to understand why are they talking about this? And that Why, what's what what position is, is this coming from what point did I tried to make using the language that I do?

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, when I just had an interview with incredible inspiring woman, she she leads and social enterprise, one, the largest in the US, that helps those that are formerly incarcerated to integrate into society providing them jobs, and she talks about, you know, that that precise issue within, within the US Justice System of there's this, there's this kind of language around, we've got to be tough on crime. And all of these strong, emotive language that appeals what I've always found, personally, is when I hear politicians on both sides appealing to vary, whether it be fear dominated language, that it's a powerful emotion, and on the other, you know, quite often on the on on more left sides, you can see you can hear a motivation towards shame, like shaming people into you know, how could you think differently or have another view and opinion and it gets against these very powerful things? Well, I guess I don't want to be seen as a bigot or I don't want to be seen like this. So therefore, I will not will Not to, you know, express my view, but what if we will lead by compassion? You know, instead of shame, right? Like, instead of, and what if we will lead by like courage or, or this ideas of, you know, I've always the things I've done in my life, whenever I've taken a risk if it was motivated by compassion and courage, those are the those are the times in my life when I've been most proud whenever I've been motivated by fear, or shame, yeah, it's never, never born any good fruit, really, you can look back in a number of things.

Ben Doherty 

I think, I think that's a really interesting point, you make that and, and it takes. And this is, you know, to your internal credit, you know, a great deal of self awareness and, and kind of self confidence to be able to interrogate your own motives and say, Well, why am I doing this? Why do I feel this way? Why am I acting in this way? And to be honest with yourself to say, is, I am doing this out of fee are, you know, I am I

Tim Buxton 

Am I voting because I'mafraid or am I voting? Because I want to create a better because I'm voting for what I want to create. 

Ben Doherty 

Precisely precisely. And, and and I think that's a hugely admirable thing. And, and, and a courageous thing to be able to sort of look inside yourself and say, Well, what are the real motivations here? And I think I think that, that goes a long way into understanding your own motivations, but then also the motivations of others with whom you might agree or you might not.

Tim Buxton 

Look, I'd love to hear some of your own the issues that are dear to your heart, you kind of referenced immigration, and you've your foreign correspondent for almost two decades. I mean, you've been in this gig for a while you've got a decorated career, man, I think it's worth noting, you know, you don't get to three un media peace awards, and three weekly Walkley awards. Without those are, I'm sure, you know, peer recognize accolades you're real proud of, but I want to know, the stories and, and the issues that that burst. The incredible work that you've you've done, and that has been duly recognized, like, what what are the issues dear to your heart that take me back to some of the things that have kind of just along the way, just,

Ben Doherty 

Yeah, look, it's really interesting that the stories that, that stay with you I met as a journalist, you you, you write lots of stories, and you're interested in, in lots of things, but the the ones that stay with you, you know, and, and the awards as a thing that kind of happens if you leave for a very long time, like I have. But I suppose they're not necessarily the stories that kind of that, that leave with you and, and resonate with you and kind of and enter fill you up, I suppose in Australia, you know, in a real sense of fulfillment of you know, I'm making a difference here. So I, when I was South Asia correspondent based in New Delhi, and I spent about 18 months on an investigation going up into into the Punjab into places around Jalandhar and those sorts of places, looking into the sports ball industry and the way it was using child labor in an egregious and extreme way that little girls in particular girls are being dragged out of school and forced to stitch malls for 810 hours a day, you know, where these big heavy needle stitching footballs and, and the kind of cruel and horrible irony of it was, they were making these, you know, girls who were seven and eight and 10 years old, were making sports balls for children on the other side of the world to play with, and the kind of juxtaposition of this child being forced into work. So this child can have a game of football and that, you know, can can can play in their backyard was was, you know, intensely painful to see and, you know, and a kind of an incredibly Stark demonstration of the, the inequality in the world. So it was a, it was a difficult story, there was sort of legal, you know, dramas, you know, difficulties in trying to tell a story. And we needed to protect those people who were talking to us from, you know, from recriminations and retribution, those sort of things, the power imbalance in in telling these stories between these powerful people who control these factories, and these, these poor families who were sort of compelled to work, I suppose it almost bonded sense, though it was it was a very complicated story in that way, and difficult for people to talk about because this was illegal. And this was kind of, you know, morally hugely problematic as well. So it was a really difficult story to tell. But you know, after 18 months, and I think six or seven, you know, long visits over over numerous days, to be able to truly sort of live inside the story and understand it properly. We, we we managed to get this story out and it made made made a huge impact back in Australia. There was, you know, very high profile brands that, that were involved, and were forced to, you know, change their practices immediately, you know, pulling balls off the shelf. They had to sort of restructure the way they, they, they they worked in, in these countries so that the families and children in particular were exploited. But most valuable thing that that came out of it was that the company that was employing children agreed to find the child laborers that he did exploited, admitted used, and to put them in school and went around and found upwards of 30 girls at school and paid for them to go to school. And, and some like that, that was a minor bit of other follow up story, but

Tim Buxton 

I was tearing up, just listening to that.

Ben Doherty 

In the, in the, in the scheme of things, you know, it's not, it's not a meant, but to those little girls, it was like, it changed the direction of their lives. And you know, you, you and and your listeners will will will know, as well as anyone that you know, the power of education, particularly having girls and skills transformative effect that has been just to know that those little girls got an education or as a result of that is hugely rewarding. And just to just to, to know however small that impact is that it was a massive impact for the for those little girls who I've kept in touch with over the years work with their families through certain sort of intermediaries and and they're doing well and their lives have taken a different direction so so those little things you know, journalism doesn't often make a difference in journalism comes in for in for criticism a lot of the time and often justifiably, you know, we don't always, always get things right. But every now and then you can, you can make a difference. So something like that is, you know, is something I'm immensely proud of. There's there's another story about an asylum seeker called Faisal, Chou gagne, who came to Australia from Iran, having suffered brutal persecution. And who died on Christmas Island having been through having been held with the Australia system for four years having been treated abysmally all the way through, and, and suffered enormously and at so many points along his journey, people within the system were crying out for him to be helped. And the system didn't do anything to help him and he ultimately died on Christmas Island. And it was, and it's a story I've returned to several times over. And I suppose, you know, to go to the theme of our discussion without seeking a measure of justice for Faisal, I can't do anything to, to redress the imbalances that that that he suffered in his life, and then the injustice as he suffered his life, but I can, I can seek to make it known. And say, to hold to account, those who are responsible for his treatment to say this shouldn't happen, this shouldn't happen to anyone, it shouldn't have happened to Faisal. And it must not happen to anybody else. And so I feel a great sense of connection and, and, and duty in, in, in telling that story as well. to, to, to sort of, to, to bear witness to that, I suppose, because that's the way we know about these things. That's the way things improve, I think.

Tim Buxton 

My, it's journalism can make a difference, just like good friends I've had on this podcast that have even used their own businesses to make a difference. It's so incredible to see that, whatever it is that we've given as a gift, or we discover as a gift, whether it be the ability to just write and tell a story, you've got a business, you've got passion for sports, whatever it is that I was reading about these, this, this, these guys in Afghanistan, that loves skateboarding, and I don't know if you've heard about them. Yeah. And yeah, and it just makes me think that this so often, you know, we don't think that what we have in our hand actually can make such a profound difference in the lives of other people and and I'm, yeah, just thank you for dedicating your life to, you know, telling these really important stories and and representing and advocating for those that don't have our voice. They don't have a voice.

Ben Doherty 

But look at that, that's immensely kind of you and, you know, to know that the you know, my sort of work and go out there and can occasionally make a difference is, is, is hugely fulfilling, but like you say, I think so many of us and so many people have that have that capacity. And you may think that the that the skills or that you have or the position that you're in is is unremarkable is unexceptional. But I think if we look to our own lives, almost everybody can can can find the way that they contribute to, to, to the greater good to the to the to the benefit of others to the to the welfare of their communities, and and their world. I think we all have that capacity and And it is, you know, I suppose it is the most sort of fundamental thing we can do as human beings is to look after other human beings. We are we are social creatures, we are, we are family creatures, and there is nothing more fundamental, I'd argue than then than reaching a hand out to your, to your fellow human. 

Tim Buxton 

It's funny, it's funny too, because so often our our initial reaction, I don't know, where it comes from our need to survive, tends to want to, like, look after ourselves, take care of ourselves. And, and, but when really, when we take care of those around us, it actually we're actually helping ourselves like, without trying to, you know, you know, be too self serving in the long game. But it's, it's, I think it's a funnel nature of like you said, we're social creatures, we are designed to care for one another. And in that process, you know, we enrich our lives. And I think I think too, I okay, Australia has a responsibility, we can take care of our own own self in this world, I think if COVID right now and clamoring for, we've got to have our own vaccines to take care of ourselves and we we can be drawn ourselves into to just kind of be you know, self preserving, right? When maybe the answer even to our own needs, and to our own self preservation, the future is to actually give and deserves those around us. And I guess I segue into your, your now role, I guess, Pacific editor looking at the whole region of the Pacific Pacific world of ours, and, and, and how important it is, and the responsibility we have as Australians to care about the issues that are on our doorstep and to care about and to recognize how it actually impacts our own life. And so maybe you can, yeah, speaking that,

Ben Doherty 

oh, yeah, I think you're right. And, you know, to go back to the point you're making about the sort of the micro and the macro that that instinct to turn inwards, on a human level can pretty quickly be seen to be self defeating, you know, as if you were to kind of cut off all all contact, and an interaction with other people, you would quickly wither and die, essentially, we are social beings, we need other people to survive. We, we need other people. And I think you can apply that to the macro as well, you know, with with a crisis like like, like COVID-19 the instinct and and and I think it's absolutely an understandable instinct is for a nation to kind of turn inwards on itself and look after itself, particularly a nation, such as Australia that is so well equipped to deal with something like COVID-19 where I were an island nation. We have a good public health care system where we're a wealthy nation, we can afford the vaccines and we've got a you know, a relatively small population, all those sort of things cap in our favor and make it easier for us to look after ourselves. But I like you think that is that is a self defeating and, and, and unhelpful instinct because I think, I think their response to something like this needs to be regional, it needs to be global, this is a global pandemic, and you are not safe for it. You are not safe from it while you are surrounded by and the countries in our neighborhood, to whom we do have an obligation to whom we we we do have the not only the wherewithal, but as I say the obligation to assist Pacific, you know, our Pacific neighbors are some of the most disadvantaged countries on Earth, they face immense challenges in dealing with something like COVID-19, they've got, you know, populations with, you know, significant comorbidities, they've got weak public health systems, they've got, you know, the basic tyranny of distance, they're archipelago nations spread out over 1000s of kilometers of the Pacific Ocean. How do you get how do you get a vaccine that needs to be sorted at at, you know, at minus 70 degrees to learn how to live on top of the Cook Islands, they're all you know, like, really sort of nuts and bolts, practical things. So a country like Australia, I think it has an obligation there. This is our neighborhood, they are our family. We do need to be out in that part of the world, in the Pacific in Southeast Asia, doing what we can to assist. And, and I think that applies then to to other issues. And again, we come back to this idea of, of justice, and then this conceptualization of justice as an active imagination. The Pacific Islands are some of the most vulnerable in the world to the impact of climate change. Sea level rise in the western Pacific is some of the fastest in the world. And islands are being threatened today in places like cannabis in places like you know, in Fiji and the Solomon Islands. I mean, this is not you know, some theoretical future issue. This is something that people are living with now. being inundated having having, you know, storm surges and Wash over your island, your crops, your house, all of those sorts of things that this is this is a reality for the people on these islands. But in a kind of sense of justice, the Pacific Islands have done almost nothing to contribute to climate change there. In terms of carbon output, the the Pacific is the smallest region the world by so far yet they are feeling the impacts of climate change first and hardest. So, my question there is, where's the justice in that? And and perhaps, you know, adjust solution involves high emitting developed industrialized countries like Australia, like the US doing what they can for the Pacific, you know, and whether that's, you know, adaptation and mitigation, whether that's, we're whether that's relocation plans, and those sort of things, when when, when some islands sadly do become unlivable. You know, what happens to people, then I think there is an obligation, you know, the developed industrialized world has caused this problem. Exactly. What are we going to do to help it? where's where's the Justice there? I mean, I, I think it is terrible and cruel injustice, that the countries that have contributed least to global warming, are suffering its effects first and hardest. Yeah,

Tim Buxton 

It's almost the same with it. Anything really the the oppressed, the vulnerable, the poor, in any society, whenever there's any form of tragedy are always the ones that suffer the most we see when there's economic collapse, you know, or struggles, it seems like the rich get bailed out, or the rich can weather the storm and survive and go through, but it's the it's the mum and dad that scraping ends to meet that that seemed to end up. You know, yeah. Listen, and without anything,

Ben Doherty 

You're absolutely right. I think the pressure is always downwards. And I think, again, you know, to come back to that active imagination, what what, what, what would it be like, if, if I wasn't sure if I could stay in my house, so you know, to, to, to to afford my rent, if I didn't have money to put food on the table? What would What was it like if if the ancestral lands that my family's owned for as many generations as I can count, as suddenly no longer livable, or suddenly underwater, you know, to imagine another situation, to imagine an another person circumstance is a significant first step into, into finding adjust solution, I think,

Tim Buxton 

And I always say this too, those that have endured, in you know, incredible oppression or, or just gone through great tragedy and trauma, many families that I've walked alongside, and throughout my life at what I've found, though, is that they have so much to teach us and so much to teach us about resiliency, about the the ability for even them to to be grateful, and to push on and to move, I feel like so often. I don't, I don't think we, we, I think we underestimate the incredible gift we have right in front of us, that have come across the shores that are in our neighborhoods, in our communities, and they to hold the key as well. So it's, it's it's almost like it's not just this obligation, or, or, or guilt, sometimes that can drive the change, but it's like that creative imagination with Well, if you if they can overcome what they've overcome, maybe maybe you could put yourselves in their situation, learn a little something from them. You know, it's it's, again, being led and pushed on, maybe by gratitude instead of guilt. In in a certain sense to a certain degree. Yeah.

Ben Doherty 

Yeah. I mean, I find Yeah. Do you think that the experiences that that you've been through, you know, living with, you know, Yazidi families in northern Iraq and, and the oppression that they fight, I mean, just see their resilience? Has that helped you in your life? Do you think to be able to say, you know, what, I can get through this, this sample I can get through this. 

Tim Buxton 

100% and, as someone who, who's kind of, you know, holds on dearly to my Christian faith, my favorite verse is God is with the brokenhearted, and I think it was Bono who said, I think at a prayer breakfast in America. He says, He addresses the crowd. He says, he's in the slums. He's in the streets he's in. This is where he, he is and, and there's this sense of beauty even in the midst of the great pain and the sorrow that is found In that presence, it, it,  breaks through your own soul. And I it's taken me to places of, you know, obviously tremendous heartache and pain and, and sometimes it's hard to kind of move on from that like you sharing your story I'm almost feeling the tears of of what that would have been lying to to walk in the shoes of and be amongst these girls and to see their their place it can't do anything but change you and I feel like there's this there is this supernatural moment this experience that happens in that place of, of I think great pain and suffering. And but it I think it must and always should lead us to this. It this cannot. Cannot be the way it must end. You know, there's got to be something Yeah, that that draws you on. But yeah.

Ben Doherty 

Yeah, no, that's, that's a really important in that kind of right, in that, in that, that moment of crisis there's a there's a there's a calm and a and I yeah, I resilience that you've had extraordinary resilience that that people can find to pull themselves through that to, you know, to draw themselves forward.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, we, one of the key programs we've delivered not only in, in Iraq, but here in Australia is post traumatic growth program, which really kind of spends time in a very group format, walking through maybe some, some, you know, obviously, they've gone through incredible trauma, they've gone through suffering, they've displacement, loss, grief, before PTSD, or before some of the more systemic long term problems gets kind of sealed into someone's life, when they go through something, there's an opportunity in that crisis, you know, to potentially actually use what you're going through to make you stronger, more resilient and better. And what are some of those key characteristics that you can foster are their key added key things you can teach somebody in that moment or in through that process, and they've, you know, discovered, you know, these principles of gratitude of kindness of is, and I think you've summed it up well, in this, this phrase, of this active imagination, you know, of, of being able to shift your perspective and to something, you know, and, again, you know, you can't, you can't, can't fast track that, you know, grief and pain and trauma takes his time is something that that just, you know, has its own time, you know, that it needs to be processed, but I think being surrounded in, in an environment where, where you're, you're able to, to look forward. And in those moments, and rebuild is is Yeah, can be really, really critical for people that go through that.

Ben Doherty 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Tim Buxton 

I'd love to just get get behind the scenes of like, your actual you know, your, your, your skill of crafting a story. I mean, I know some people that that are prolific writers, and they sit down and they write 1000 words a day, and then they finally you know, like, barely, you know, they do that because at the end of the day, they might only have a few words that are good, but they you know, they just prolife proliferate, and in writing, right, but for you, you've often got quite a quick timeframe to push stories through or there's just maybe you're you're working on a really long story, what what is it that, you know, that you employ? What's your kind of secret sauce, let's say,

Ben Doherty 

I wish I knew what it was, um, I mean, I, I suppose Yeah, I mean, as I said, journalism, you know, that that sort of rough draft or first draft of history, like it often is very quickly written. And, you know, new stories need to be turned around quite quickly. I, I do think there is a difference there, there are some news stories that are kind of, for the moment, and, and you write them and, you know, your writing there is, is is very functional. And it's just about the kind of sort of, you know, as seamless as possible transmission of information from, you know, from from my fingers to, you know, from in into the minds of, of whoever's reading, I think there is a different process for those sort of longer more in depth cases where you really need to you need a lot of time and you need a lot of headspace to kind of get into a story and I mean I when I'm when I'm writing a piece like that, I will sort of seal myself off a bit, you know, phone goes off or on the side. And I you know, email notifications, everything else. goes off, and it's just kind of, you've, you've kind of got to leave in that story. And that's very much the only way I, I find I can write. And sometimes finding the voice or the essence of what I want to bring out can can can can take a little time. And there can be, you know, several false starts and, you know, and I, I remember, you know, writing some, some pieces that have gone through, you know, 16 1718 drafts before I kind of get them, right, where somebody stories you bang your right top to bottom, Yeah, perfect out of guys. And that's, you know, that's, that's an important function use news tool, but, but there are other stories that you kind of leave with and that are, you know, that kind of creations that you want to be really proud of that you want every word right, that you you go through again, for the 40 years time, just do though, is that common? exactly the right spot is that is that am I am I reflecting exactly what I'm trying to convey here, so, so those pieces, you know, you you live with, quite intensely, while while they're with you, and then, and you feel very kind of propriety, almost kind of paternal about them. And then you have to send them out into the world for other people to, to read and to criticize and delight, but I'm not liking those sort of things. And, and, and, and it's usually rewarding it when something that you feel is important, and, you know, a story that that that that you felt is vital to get out into the world sort of lands on on on fertile ground, you know, and you see people respond, people call you out, people write you letters, people send you emails, or, or on Twitter, or, or whatever, or, you know, we get letters as a guardian or something, you know, that, that you see that? is resonating with people, and that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone's kind of, you know, going to agree with you, but that, that you've made a kind of valued contribution that, that, that people have taken the time to read. And, and, and consider so like, there's a sense of letting go and a sort of sent out as much as you send it out into the world, but it's not, it's not yours anymore belongs to everybody else. And that that that can be that can be full on.

Tim Buxton 

I can imagine there's that there's that some sometimes is that essence to a piece or that you don't even know what it is that somehow it's like a song that suddenly hits the charts and you know, someone's they've, they've written 1000 songs before that they like better, but somehow this one? Yeah, there was something about it. And that's the beauty I think of, of that human element to it. It's It's, there's Yeah, there's something very

Ben Doherty 

Yeah. Yeah. And something slightly charming in the unpredictability of it, you don't quite know how things are going to land. And, and what's going to resonate with people? Yeah. And that's, that's all, t's all part of the allure

Tim Buxton 

you've you've taken your pen to writing a book as well. Can you talk a little about that? Is that all right, can we?

Ben Doherty 

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now I've I love talking about Nagaland. And that's kind of almost kind of Yeah, I mean, look, I love talking about because it takes me back to this place. Yeah. Nagaland, which is behind me in there. Yeah, it is. I wrote a novel and I never thought I'd write a novel. I never had ambition to be a novelist. I but but this was a story that called me I and and, and forced itself upon me and sort of knocked at the front of my skeleton. And you haven't told me that you haven't told me it. So it gives me immense joy to know that it's out in the world and people would read it the book is called Nagaland and Nagaland is a tiny, almost forgotten state of India, India's this is very difficult to do on a podcast.. India is this diamond shape roughly, you know, Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, but it also goes up and over the other side of Bangladesh. And there are seven states there seven small mountain states. Excellent a call on the Seven Sisters and the sort of furthest and most remote and smallest one is called Nagaland. And it's the home of the Naga people who I am a ethnically much more closely related to the Tibetans and, and the Burmese. And I've always felt a very strong sense of disconnection from from India. So I stumbled into this story in a very sort of strange way. I used to find a rock band in Delhi, I played in a in a rock and roll band called The Jam Jam. And we we turned up we turned up for a gig one night and you know, like people would come and watch us play, but not that many. And this place was full, it was Haven and it was full of Naghavi. And the band who were playing before us were called the figureheads. And my first sight of Augustine, who was the protagonists of this book was Augustine stripped to the waist, you know, shirtless with long hair, but shaved at the sides and the feather from a hornbill bird stuck out the back of his head and he was singing in Naga me's. They're, they're sort of shared language between the various Naga tribes. It's their it's their communal language. And it's incredibly powerful song and they're just this sort of this captivating mantle. They're like absolutely extraordinary. It was also decorated in the sort of tattoos of the Naga people including the facial tattoos of other the ancient headhunters. And so there's sort of compelling data and and, and the federal support bad for us. And should it be the other way around? Because I'm much better than us. And I had many more, you know, yeah. We had this extraordinary gig. And then afterwards, I was I was talking to Augustine and I asked him about Nagaland. And I, you know, I was a correspondent that a lot, and I was aware of neglect, but knew nothing about it. And he started to tell the stories of his childhood and his peoples just absolutely compelling. He said, you'll have to come one day and I sort of thought it was this sort of throwaway line, but from then on Augustine and I would see each other on the place. And when we fell into this, this curious friendship, we would just appear in my life and then disappear again. And he appeared one day when I had Diggy fever was sort of writhing on the floor in pain with this strange concoction in a coke bottle. This was strange, green bubbling liquid that he forced me to drink. I don't know if it helped. Yeah, help her help or hinder. But I'm here telling you the story. So anyway, and eventually said, No, you really must come to Naga land. And so I went up there. And I found this extraordinary community up there in these communities. He was from a place called crawl, which is technically a metaphor, but as part of that sort of the broader Naga community. And I met with his family and I stayed with his family, and we would go to his village and we would sit. And in the morning, we'd wake up and say, which direction are we going to walk and we would walk along the ridges of these hills, like these are the foothills of the mountains, they lead up to Mount Everest, a very high mountain, and we would walk from village to village and we would sit down and we would share stories and we'd share food. And I was drawn into this extraordinary world of of the Naga people about which I knew nothing, and I had no intention of writing a story or anything. It was very profound and spectacular place. And I left. I left Nagaland I left in Europe came back to Australia just before the birth of my first child. And about a year after that a package arrived, this sort of battered yellow envelope. And it was postmarked Nagaland and I open it up and it was Augustine's diary this leather bound diary would carry everywhere he went and was filled with song lyrics and maps and drawings of hornbills that hold those very sacred birds, the market people and, and it was this intensely personal and intensely important book that he had everywhere and in a moment of personal crisis. He needed to keep that book safe and he sent it to the first place he could think of where it would be safe, and that was to be in Australia. And from there the story I installed so the novel is an interesting novel in that like I say it's interesting, in that it lives in the in the hinterland between Augustine's life experience and the struggles of the Naga people. There's been an insurgency for independence for since since the independence of India for 60 years that the Naga people have been ravaged by a heroin epidemic and an HIV epidemic which followed through dislocation and interrupted schooling and economic disadvantage and oppression. You know, significant violence in the military, but also Augustine's role as the keeper of his people's stories and and the the book leaves in the hinterland between Augustine's life story, the history of the Naga people, and the myths and legends of those people. And it's all told through the diary and an Augustine's Augustine's moment of crisis, I suppose. And it's also a love story. So so but it but it was, it was, as I say, a story I never thought I would write I never envisaged myself writing but once the diary came to me there was this obligation this notion and I even tried to put it away a few times I'd write drafts and then stick it in a drawer and say, I can't do it it's too difficult. I can't write this story but it would keep coming back to me and said You haven't told me it inside. Eventually I realized that I had to tell the story and that story is now going and it's really nice to talk about I know I've I've sort of rambled on a bit but I wish we'll talk more about this every every everybody I talked to about Naga land or everybody who reads Naga led you know Augustine story and leaves on and another person there's another person who knows about the Naga who knows about Augustine story and that feels to me like that's that's been my purpose with this is to keep his story and and and the story of the Naga you know, I live a little more so I'm always happy to talk about Nagaland,

Tim Buxton 

Oh man, that's phenomenal. It feels quite fitting to kind of wrap things up just kind of talking about a story you know the the theme of really what I want the podcast to really emphasizes a world where everyone belongs even the Naga you know Naga people and and we don't know until we hear and Thank you, you know, thanks for kind of taking Augustine's stories people. And sharing and carrying it along. Yeah. And, and you've done that. I think in a lot of your work, and it's Yeah, again, I've really been looking forward to spending, having this conversation with you spend this time catching up again, it's been a while. Last, you know, you can some you can if you could sum this up in a couple of sentences, what what is it that gives you hope? I know, when when you answered the question of, oh, why does justice matters, we kind of prepping for this. You talked about this world being more and more fractured. And yet, Justice is about bringing things together. What, in in the back frame of when you have seeing, you know, this world and the hopelessness that there seems to be in how divided and how in equal it, it has become? What drives you, one, what inspires you? Is there somebody that inspires you is what is it that gives you hope for the future? Because I think that holds the key for us to keep going.

Ben Doherty 

I think you're right. I mean, there are certain people that inspire me in different ways and in, in, in different situations. But I think, I think, you know, I think humanity sort of resilience and kind of fundamental optimism is the thing that draws me I mean, you know, and I think, because there's always tomorrow, because tomorrow is yet to be dictated, because tomorrow has potential to be better than today. That's what sort of, sort of drives us on. And I'm consistently as you know, as, as you were reflecting earlier, in your experiences with the city, even in these times of immense crisis. And I I don't think that the 30 people would would contest that the world is going through a very difficult time at the moment, we are facing significant crises on a number of fronts, that there is, there is a common or resilience that exists there and an almost spiritual stillness that you can say, yeah, we can make tomorrow better than today. And we can take small steps to make things better. I think there is a fundamental underlying resilience in humanity and an underlying optimism and I think that's what that's what drives us all through.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. Well said, man. Thanks again,

Ben Doherty 

Tim. It's been an absolute pleasure. I could honestly talk all day. It's been absolutely... I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And, and let's not make it so long before we catch up again… that, that'd be fantastic.