Episode 18: Carl Gaede — Bring Healing to the World’s Most Traumatized

Carl Gaede is a psychotherapist from western Wisconsin, who moved to northern Uganda with his wife Julie — also a psychotherapist — and their two young children to launch Tutapona. Tutapona is a nonprofit with a vision to lead individuals that have been affected by war and conflict to emotional recovery. Tutapona has provided mental health programs to over 50,000 individuals affected conflict and war in Uganda and Iraq, and most recently, in St Paul, Minnesota.

In Africa, Tutapona began working with refugees living in Uganda when a team was established in Nakivale Refugee Settlement, reaching people from Congo, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Rwanda, Burundi and Sudan. More recently, their mental health services expanded into Rwamwanja, Kiryandongo, Adjumani and Oruchinga refugee settlements as well.

In late 2015, the Gaedes took an exploratory trip to Iraq to experience first hand the Syrian refugee crisis and see if there was any way Tutapona could offer services to those affected by the conflict there. In September 2016, the Gaede family moved to Iraq to set up the first Tutapona office in the Middle East in Duhok, Kurdistan (Northern Iraq).

The work, which has had notable success in several refugee camps, has continued to thrive since the Gaedes’ return to the U.S.A. In September 2018, Tutapona launched our world-class trauma rehabilitation program specifically for children living as refugees. This program, called The Heroes Journey, was written by child mental health specialists to help children work through their experiences using Post-Traumatic Growth (PTG) strategies.

In this episode, I unpack with Carl what exactly Post-Traumatic Growth is and the transformative impact that these ground-breaking programs and strategies are having amongst the world's most traumatized.

For years now, Carl and his remarkable family are an incredible example of living out their lives with compassion and courage to bring justice and healing to those that have been affected by war and trauma.

You can learn more about the work of Tutapona by visiting www.tutapona.com.

You can also follow Tutapona on Instagram @tutapona & Facebook www.facebook.com/Tutapona. To get in touch with Carl Gaede you can send an email to carl@tutapona.com.

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Full Transcript

Carl Gaede 
I remember a meeting with somebody who said, cancer was the best thing that ever happened to me. And I thought, but like, you're here you are in a hospital, but literally dying, like you're literally going to die any minute. And you're saying that this is the best thing that ever happened to you and you wouldn't trade it for anything. And, you know, they would say things like, you know, I used to be just a terrible husband, a terrible father, I didn't care about anybody about myself. I just cared about my job. I was just working all the time. But this diagnosis this cancer forced me to be the husband, that I should have been, forced me to be the father that I should have been in, it's given me the opportunity to reconcile with my children and restore those relationships.

Tim Buxton 
You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs. G'day, today we're going to be talking about post traumatic growth with clinical psychologist Carl Gaede. He is the founder of Tutapona, which is a nonprofit with a vision to lead individuals that have been affected by war and conflict to emotional recovery. Now, we're going to learn in this episode about the ways that they have been doing that in places like Uganda, and Iraq. In fact, alongside fellow clinical psychologist Dr. Robi Sonderegger, You Belong has teamed up with Carl and Robbi to deliver the groundbreaking Grow program which is providing trauma, recovery and rehabilitation to newly settled refugee families here in Australia. Carl and his remarkable family are an incredible example of living out their lives with compassion, and courage to bring justice and healing to those that have been affected by war and trauma for so many years. And it truly is my pleasure to have this conversation and to share it with you today. Here's my friend, Carl Gaede.

Tim Buxton 
Well, Carl, longtime no see. How's it going over there in Wisconsin?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, it's going well, we are gearing up for winter. It's starting to get cold. We've already had some snow fly. You guys over there. You're getting ready for summer, I'm sure. But over here. It's starting to get cold.

Tim Buxton  
Yeah, man. It is so cold over there. I mean, that's like, where the Green Bay Packers play. And usually it's like snow and ice on the field, isn't it? It's it's a very cold part of the world in the winter. But you have, beautiful summers to which a lot of people don't realize, hey?

Carl Gaede
Yeah, let's try. We've had a beautiful fall. I mean, even just like we had snow got cold. But the night warmed up really nice. I was in shorts and a t-shirt yesterday. So it's been really nice. But today got really cold again, and we're starting to gear up for winter.

Tim Buxton 
It's nice to talk about the weather, isn't it? After all the other discussions and you're in the heart of it. I mean, how is America going right now? I mean, you guys are right in the middle of it how you feeling personally, man about that all that's going on with the elections? What's going on in your your heart and mind, man, I'd love to love to hear your thoughts.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, you know, I think I think I would just sum it up by saying I'm just really sad in a lot of ways for not just the state of our nation, but the state of the world with the of course the elections. You know what, this is a really divisive time. The elections were difficult and you know, people were just fighting about stuff. But even before the elections, just so many things going on with racial and injustices and just our hearts are breaking for our brothers and sisters that just don't have it as good as, as I have it. And so in our hearts are really breaking for the sins of of, of us and our ancestors and the sins that they just run rampant and leave hurting people behind in their wake. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to explain it other than just kind of this profound sadness and grief for what's been happening.

Tim Buxton 
Thanks for sharing that, I think that's, you know, obviously, there's just a lot going on for people, whether it be COVID, and the way that's impacted their, their health and the health of loved ones or their, you know, jobs and financial situation. There's, you're right, there's this sense of, of so much pain and division in the world. And I think sadness, that is a really, really apt word for this moment. Yeah. And, and you're certainly one that knows how to carry that grief and that sadness and to carry help others to carry that well, as a, as a clinical psychologist, yourself and the work that you you've done and that you are doing, and continue to do around the world, and some of the most hurting. And let's just say, suffering places on the planet at the moment. And so I'm thankful for your time. First of all, it was wonderful being able to be with you last night, well, my last night, your early morning, doing some training with some wonderful new kind of programs that you've got launching. And before we get into that, though, which I'd love to just talk a lot about. It's it's just I think, so crucial and critical to this moment of how we address this great sadness, how do we address these great injustices that we're experiencing and saying, I want to take you back to that night on the roof of our house in Kurdistan Iraq, we must have just met that day. And we were sitting up there with you with our mutual friend, Robbi Sonderegger. And we're just on the roof chatting and talking and, and just dreaming about what the future might hold in the midst of ISIS in in the midst of craziness that was happening all around us. What comes to mind when you think about that night, Carl?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, that that was an exciting time, you know, that was my first time to the Middle East at all, and then my first time to Iraq, so just learning and seeing it all, and just taking it all in. And I remember being really struck by this feeling of when you're there, in a place like Iraq, you just feel how, how ancient it is, you can just feel these, these sacred lands, these, these, this land that people have been walking on for thousands of years. And I found it incredible, just being there, and meeting the people. And then of course, learning about the culture and just things are different. Even when you talk about us being on the roof of your house, it's hard. It's hard from this context here in the United States to really even understand what that was like. I mean, the houses have in that flat roof on the top, and it's really like a picnic area, go up on the roof and hang out, you had this nice setup up there, and just a great place on the roof of your house to hang out and have a little party. And I remember being with you up there, and your family and Robi. And, and, and sitting on the ledge of that house and leaning over and you feel the warm air, the warm kind of Middle Eastern Air and then looking out on this really sacred land. And this, this place that that is has had so much pain and so much joy for hundreds of years. And then thinking about what if, what if my family did something like your family did and we just up in moved to Iraq. And Robi asked me at that point, I hadn't thought about it at that point, because my whole heart had been Africa. You know, I had really just thought up until that point, really, it was all about Africa. And we longed to see people healed and people transformed. But really, my mind had just been on Africa. So then Robi asked me could you ever see yourself here and I remember just looking around and seeing how your family lived and how you guys were doing and you were doing so well and had a great ministry you guys were impacting lives. And I thought you know, I never thought about it before but I could see it I guess if God called me here, I could. We could do it. We could be here. And but Iraq is one of those places that is sure is different than people think. And when I Even to this day, when I come back now and I, I tell people what it was like they're in Iraq, and how I loved it, how my family loved it, my daughter's just loved being there. And living in Iraq, people will say, Man, that's just, I never would have thought Iraq was like that. It's just from what you see on the news and what you hear in different reports, the images that you conjure up in your mind, it's, it's far from the reality. And it was such a beautiful place, such a warm, lovely, hospitable place. Our family loved being there. And then being so close to the frontlines with ISIS and so close to the refugee camps and the IDP camps where we were working, it was incredible to be, you know, that close to just a few minutes, we could be in the camps, working with people, and hanging out in their tents with them drinking tea, and just being with them. That was incredible. Whereas in Africa, most of the refugee camps we worked out, were hours away, and, you know, took quite a while to get there. So it was, it just felt really good to be much more in the action there and Iraq.

Tim Buxton 
You know, you mentioned something about the landscape and the mountains and this sacred land, but also this land that, even within itself carries the trauma. And you and I kind of have a shared passion of adventure sports. And I know you love rock climbing and mountain climbing, and I had the opportunity to climb some of the highest mountains there. And we just had lots of lots of fun together. But as you walk on those mountains, every now and then you'll see a sign that say, you know, there's landmines in this area. And you discover quickly, the locals will tell you that there are anywhere between five to sometimes fifteen, the numbers seem to change, but 5 to 15 million, undocumented landmines scattered throughout these mountains, in the wars between Iran and Iraq, we lived right on the border, both you and I, our homes were fairly close to those borders, and with Turkey as well. And you're reminded of, of the, the blood spilt in and the fighting and the pain. And these mountains that are at one point of refuge also are as a place of complete destruction, and suffering and pain. And you realize that the land carries that trauma and the people generationally carry that trauma. And and you talked about your work. And you touched on it just now, briefly, in Africa, in particular, Uganda, and then you came to Iraq, to really address that that acute crisis that was happening in particular, with ISIS and the Syrian conflict in general that had been going on for for almost a decade or Seven, six years before that. Can we kind of rewind your journey a little bit? I mean, what, what takes you from I understand it kind of a family run clinical psychologist to take in your family to Africa. And founding Tutapona? Wow, tell me, I'd love to hear that stuff. You could do that in in five or 10 minutes. I just I know that's the really hard thing to do is to kind of give you that timeframe. But if you can just kind of give us that that little journey that you took on. be great.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah. Like you mentioned, my wife and I, Julie, we, we didn't set out to start an organization. We had no plans of starting an organization. We had studied social work, because we did want to help people. We wanted to be in a profession where we were what we did matter. We didn't want to just get a job and make money. We wanted to be involved in helping people so we both studied social work, got our master's degree. We had various jobs in all different kinds of settings. And our work just kind of became more and more clinical. And we were licensed psychotherapist. ventually we opened a private practice to an individual and marriage and family therapy. I also worked at an outpatient clinic with for a full time job and so I had a really good good pay good benefits. We had a nice house, two nice cars, two beautiful daughters. And life was good , we were living the "American Dream". 

Tim Buxton 
Sounds like the American Dream right there.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, yeah, life was good. We had, we were involved in a good church. And at this point, Julie was staying at home with our two young daughters. So I could, I was two minutes away from home. I come home for lunch every day hanging out with my beautiful family go back to work. It was really good. But then we heard about this situation in northern Iraq. And I heard about this, it just felt like-

Tim Buxton 
Do you mean Northern Uganda?

Carl Gaede 
-something inside of us broke? I saw I mean, Northern Uganda. Yeah, you're right, Northern Uganda. So at that time, this was around 2005/2006. There was the rebel group, the LRA, or Lord's Resistance Army that was just wreaking havoc on Northern Uganda. And they were doing things that were inconceivable to me at the time. I mean, the rebels were doing things like cutting off people's lips, cutting off their nose or their ears. They were, you know, of course, taking over whole villages, raping and looting being and, and they were taking young children as child soldiers. And there were reports that there were between 35 and 50,000 children in northern Uganda, taken as child soldiers and the girls as sex slaves. And every night children would commute into town centers, like the town of Gulu, to try to seek shelter and be safe. There were thousands of children every single night, leaving their homes, their mothers and their fathers just asleep under verandas, and in bus parks and in hospitals just to try to be safe. And the choli people in northern Uganda were caught in the middle of this. The UN, the United Nations, Undersecretary general for Humanitarian Affairs called it the world's worst unintended humanitarian crisis. When Julian I heard about this, like I said, it just felt like something broke inside of us, it felt like how can we not do something, we have to do something now that we know we can't just bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we didn't hear about this. So I wanted to make a trip there and see for myself what was going on what the situation was, like 90% of the population, or 2.1 million people were living in IDP camps, internally displaced people camps. So I finally found somebody that was going there. And I made a trip at the end of 2006. And I went to these IDP camps and, and I saw what was happening and there was the UN was there. And they were there was food distribution, and there was clothing and housing, but there was nobody addressing the emotional effects of their experiences. So came back in 2007, I took Julia there and in 2008, we just sold everything. And we moved to Uganda, and we started Tutapona up with the sole purpose of addressing the emotional effects of war and conflict. So to the point, I existed for the sole purpose of doing mental health and psychosocial support with communities that were affected by war, and conflict. And you know, I say that we had a good life in America, but we cashed it in for a great life by going to Uganda, and by being involved in this work. And there was just nothing like meeting with people in IDP camps in their home, out under a mango tree, just providing a group based trauma rehabilitation program. And there's just nothing like coming back at the end of that two weeks. And people that were suicidal at the beginning of that program, people that were ready to kill themselves would be dancing for joy and singing as I pulled into the village. And there was just something incredible about being in that setting. What the UN was calling the world's worst, attended humanitarian crisis, and bringing healing and restoration. So that's really Tutapona started.

Tim Buxton 
Can you give me goosebumps as you turn I've heard you tell the story, if a few times already. And it brings me back to those moments of being with families in Iraq as well and the incredible richness and fullness of life of being and being able to walk alongside those people now. I know for you. This became very personal in a very special way for us. A family when you came across a special girl who you would later take on to be your, your daughter. And I'd love for you to share the fullness of that story. Because it is just so beautiful. And I think just ties in so well. to, you know, the work that you're doing and who you are. And I forgot to mention not just a daughter, a son or grandson. I'll let you tell the story.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, this really was a miracle. You know, being in that setting in northern Uganda, there were thousands and thousands of children that we were surrounded by that had been child soldiers that had been abducted, that had been taken to the bush that had gone through horrific experiences, thousands of children that were night commuters. But God brought one girl into our path. She was 14 years old, and she was pregnant at the time. And something just clicked and God told us that this is that we're supposed to help this girl. And you know, you can't help everybody. There's thousands of children there that have been deeply affected and hurt in terrible ways. But God just told us that we're supposed to help this one. So we got involved in her life. And we met with some social workers that that were really asking for help and say, could you be involved? So we pursued with the we approached her and just said, Look, we heard about your situation. We don't know if there's anything we can do to help. But we just want you to know that we would love to help if we can. And we didn't know if that meant just paying for her hospital bills. So she could give birth in a in a hospital, or what that looked like. But as we ended up meeting with her, and some of her family members that were around, it seemed like there was much more that was needed than that. She had been raped. And by a 21 year old when she was 14 and her that her uncle that she was living with was physically abusive. And when we showed up at her mud hut, we literally had to drive, there's one person who knew where she was. And so he drove us and we drove down a dirt road and turned off for miles and turned off that little dirt path that footpath really, we drove down that with our car as far as we could drive, till we couldn't go anymore, got out and walked a bit further. And she was literally there barefoot and pregnant and cooking out over a fire on a big pot trying to care for nine children that her Auntie had had that she was responsible to care for. And anyway, we met with the government and they said, you can foster her and so take her to Kampala. And so we did and she lived with us, we pursued guardianship, we got legal guardianship. She came to our family when she was pregnant. And she she gave birth six weeks later, to a beautiful boy, Elijah is his name. And there were so many miracles in the story along I can't share them all. But a couple of quick ones. We you got to has a law that you can't adopt unless you foster them for three years. You've had physical custody of the child for three years. So we said well, okay, we'll do that. She'll be 17 at the time. But we'll do that we'll abide by the laws of Uganda. When we went to the US Embassy at one point to try to get her a visa to travel home with us to America one summer, and they denied it. But we were talking to the counselor. And she told us by the way, you realize that the US will never recognize your adoption unless it's finalized before her 16th birthday. So I didn't realize that and so I left there right away and called an attorney and said Is there any way this was six days before her 16th birthday? Wow, there was no way that this would, would happen. There's no way it wasn't even possible for that to happen. But it did. The day before her 16th birthday, Uganda courts finalized adoption. And then that was recognized. And then another miracle was for her to get US citizenship. She had to be in a we had to have had adopted her for two years. And she had to be under 18. So we literally had a one day window where we could apply for her to get US citizenship as a child of US citizens. And that all worked out. And it so there were just numerous miracles along the way. But Judas is an amazing. She's now 24 years old. She's, she's doing incredible. She's living here in the US with us. And her son Elijah, is, you know, technically my grandson. But really, he's my son. Yeah, I'm the only father he's ever known. And he calls me Dad, I coaches, little soccer teams, and I coached his basketball team. And I'm, you know, we hang out all the time. And he lives with us. He's now nine years old. Just a beautiful, amazing boy. And both Judith analyze Joe have been a huge blessing to our family.

Tim Buxton 
Oh, man, when when I got the chance to visit you guys. Gosh, when was that? year or so ago, I can't remember now but in your home, and just to see both Judith and Elijah. It's a great little setup. They've got their own kind of like granny flat kind of own separate living area where they kinda do life together. But it's just so intertwined with you and his racing around and his rollerblades. And Judith is such a mature girl, you know, just it's just incredible. The the hope and the joy in your family was just something something special to witness and to see. And, but as you as you share, there's a lot of hard work, a lot of hurdles a lot of obstacles, a lot of Hey, we need a miracle.

Tim Buxton 
Man, yeah.. Thank you for sharing that. Thank Judith too, and Elijah. I know. That's, that's a gift to be at a Be willing for that story to be shared to. to, to others into our listeners.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah. And I, you know, I tend to forget even sometimes all the Judith has gone through I mean, she's doing incredibly well. And but I forget all that she's gone through some times been shot out by the rebels being chased by the rebels, then the sleep out overnight at bush hiding out as the rebels are approaching being in an orphanage, sleeping at night, community centers, being homeless living on the streets, I mean, just all that she's gone through. It's unbelievable. But she's doing incredibly well. It's just amazing to see how she's grown and, and matured. Oh, man.

Tim Buxton 
It, it does and just Yeah, when you just talk, I had this picture of her just, you know, squatting barefoot on the ground, trying to cook dinner for nine other children that are in our care at such a young tender age. What resilience what courage, what, and to think of these things, it kind of reminds me of the very heart of what to two partners all about right now. It's about delivering these programs of resilience to those that have lost everything lost their homes, whether they be refugees and or victims of war. And we had the opportunity when we first met on that rooftop top of talking about delivering this groundbreaking program called grow, which takes this idea and I'll let you as the as the trained professional here explain this takes this idea of post-traumatic growth. So idea of cultivating resiliency in the face of trauma in the face of suffering and before it takes root in people's lives. So one maybe you could introduce this program grow and you've kind of got an A new I don't know if you can or want to talk about program for children as well heroes that really harnesses this idea of post-traumatic growth and maybe give us a bit of a scientific and psychological breakdown of of what that is to that'd be great.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, well, man, Tim, you did a good job. I should leave it to you to explain it. But yeah, it's really that idea that you know, when trauma affects us when we're impacted by significantly stressful events, nativeness oftentimes we get knocked backwards. And so with that, there develops a lot of times these negative symptoms, things like nightmares, night terrors, flashbacks, you know, anxiety, depression. And so, oftentimes what we try to do is then alleviate the symptoms of that trauma. Try to help people sleep better at night. Try to help them not have nightmares, reducing anxiety. Like that, but you know that that's that's, I don't want to say it's hopeless. But that that's not very encouraging to try to just if all you're doing in life is trying to stop the negative things from happening. But instead, this idea of post-traumatic growth is actually saying that, yes, these events are terrible, they're awful. They're horrible events that we would never wish on in anybody. But if they could be used as a catalyst for growth in the person's life, we can take something awful, and see how, how really good things can come out of that. This idea started, you know, I first kind of heard about this idea years ago, when I was in graduate school, I was living and working on the East Coast, going to graduate school, and I was doing work at Yale New Haven Hospital, and I was working in the oncology Ward, with patients that were dying from terminal illnesses, cancer, AIDS. And so my job was to do individual and family counseling for them and their family members around grief and end of life issues. And I remember meeting with somebody who said, cancer was the best thing that ever happened to me. Hmm. And I thought, what, like, you're here you are in a hospital, but literally dying, like, you're literally going to die any minute. And you're saying that this is the best thing that ever happened to you, and you wouldn't trade it for anything. And, you know, they would say things like, you know, I used to be just a terrible husband, a terrible Father, I didn't care about anybody about myself, I just cared about my job, I was just working all the time. But this diagnosis, this cancer forced me to be the husband, that I should have been, for me to be the father that I should have been in, it's given me the opportunity to reconcile with my children, and restore those relationships. So Wow, in my early days of coming to understand post-traumatic growth a little bit, that that was sort of the framework from which I could see it through and see that even something that I would say, is a terrible thing, cancer, if it can change the trajectory of my life, and helped me to actually grow as a result of it, the maybe there's something positive out of that. And so, um, so when we started developing this new program called grow, as I start diving into the research around post-traumatic growth, and Robbie and I, as we, as we were looking at this, in the early stages of starting to try to develop grow man, I was really drawn to that literature on post-traumatic growth, and what if there's ways that we can help people to, to use this as a catalyst for growth in their life. And so the research would show that, yes, people get knocked backwards. But there's one group of people that when they get knocked backwards, like that, they just kind of stay stuck there in that place, and they never really move back. And then there's a second group of people, that when they get knocked backwards, they can kind of scratch and claw and fight, and they can work their way back to baseline, work their way back to the point where they were before that experience happened.

Carl Gaede 
But then there's a third group of people that the research would show that when they get knocked backwards, this third group of people, they actually their life enters a different trajectory, and they actually move beyond where they ever would have been had the not trauma not occurred. Now, this is, of course, the research shows, these are people with or without therapy, this is not necessarily counseling, did, or then people, some people just inherently grow through those traumatic experiences? And so we said, okay, well, what is it about that group of people, we want to look at that group and say, What's different about them? Why would they grow? And by the way, it's not growing in spite of the trauma, it's actually growing. Because of the trauma, the trauma comes that catalyst for the growth. So when we looked at that group of people, the research would show that they possess certain characteristics. And so we said, well, what if we could help develop those characteristics in people, knowing that those people that possess those characteristics, they're more likely to grow as a result of those traumatic experiences. So that's what the girl program really is all about is about helping to try to facilitate those personal cases. characteristics that will facilitate growth. No, you know, those those characteristics are things like courage, hope, kindness, gratitude, being grateful for the things that I have, you know, those people that focus on those things that are good in their life that they have to be grateful for really are much more likely to, to grow, those are kind, they get outside of themselves. And then I just focused on all that I've been through, but they say, look at this person, this person could really use some help, and they reach outside of themselves, and they extend kindness to somebody else. And then the final characteristic is a belief in a god who cares about me. So, so those are the characteristics that we look to try to help foster.

Tim Buxton 
Justice matters is brought to you by ubelong. If you'd like to learn more about their work, empowering refugees to integrate and thrive in Australia, head on over to you belong.org.au. There, you'll find ways to get involved, volunteer and financially get behind the several initiatives they've got going on. There's also a stack of articles and blogs that you'll find there that are really informative and engaging. Now, did you know this podcast is actually a video podcast featured on YouTube? Just search justice matters. TV on YouTube, and watch each episode right there. And while you're there, hit subscribe and get notified each time a new video drops. What, uh, what is unique about the way it's delivered to, I mean, I think that's something that's really not enough, you're going to go there. That's something that I've found really powerful and helpful. You know, a lot of people think this kind of work is done one on one and counseling or therapy sessions that you kind of really need that. But there's something beautiful about it being done in community, maybe you could even and even just the way it's facilitated. It's it's, it's just, yeah, I'd love for our listeners to hear some of that too, if you don't mind.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, very, very early on right when I landed in Uganda, I realized I cannot do therapy with an choli person who speaks a different language from a different culture who's been through vastly different experiences than I have been chased by the rebels and so forth. And so really, the best thing that I can do is to help train and equip a team of local leaders who could facilitate the language and the program in their own language, and their own culture with their own people. And so that's what we we set off to do was to train and equip a local team of staff, and then provide ongoing supervision and staff development for them, and just empower them to really do do this program. And it's a group based program. So there's something really beautiful about coming together as a group, because we all need one another, and build unity, restoring community, having people rely on and count on one another, has been amazing. In Uganda, we typically just meet out under a mango tree, and gather people together. And we do a group based program for 10 sessions. So two weeks, five days a week, and being led by our local staff, and our local stuff, often aren't even professional counselors, you know, oftentimes, we think, all master's degree to be able to do this well. I went to Uganda thinking, look, if I can train people up, to do a program like this, they just need to be teachable, they need to be ready earned, and they need to be willing to just care for those people that that are around them. And part of this group, and so it's worked out extremely well just training up lay facilitators, but they become very skilled at doing a program. Yes. And, and being able to work the group dynamics.

Tim Buxton 
Yeah, and you've as a result, then being able to spread your work all throughout Uganda even into sit down and then now into, obviously the Middle East, in particular northern Iraq. And I just love the the vision, the vast vision, the great vision, you have to really take this work this critical work even beyond our shores, even we've been able to adopt it here in Australia. I mean, it's such a privilege to be able to facilitate this program with refugees that have now resettled here and I'm rebuilding the Life just like your daughter, Judith with us, her son, Elijah, they're rebuilding their life and they're getting the tools that they need to keep looking forward. I know you've I mean, you've got plans to even deliver throughout America, like you said, there's, there's no place I don't think on this planet where the value and the the powerful lessons that come through this course cannot be put to use. Can you touch on, on on this new venture we've got, which was why I was on a call with the last night that's really wanting to take it to two children as well, to really kind of realize, hey, look, let's not wait two kids are adults. And a lot of this stuff is really setting in their life and experiencing. Can you talk about the hero's journey?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, that's right. I'm super excited about this children's program now. So for a long time, I was nervous about, about doing a children's program, I didn't feel like I was a child therapist. You know, I haven't I've gone through trainings on doing therapy with children and on Play therapy, but I just never felt like I was specifically a child therapist. And so I was hesitant to, to jump into that. So for years, we were asked to try to look at doing a program specifically for children. And for years, children were trying to get into our adult programs, especially in Uganda, they would, they would kind of sneak in and it finally it just got to a point where said, Look, yeah, we've got to do this, especially Uganda, being one of the youngest countries on the planet with 50% of the population being under 15 years old, my 75% population is under 25. So and in the children have grown up knowing nothing except a war and conflict. Many of the refugees that we were working with in the camps had been there, their entire life, the children, and they never known any difference. So so we realized, look, it's time we've got to do this. So we worked. And we developed this hero's journey, children's curriculum, really out of the same post-traumatic growth literature, using cognitive behavioral therapy, as well. And I'm really excited about this. Because when we can change that trajectory of a person's life when they're so young, and even if you change just a little bit, over the course of 10 years, 20 years, man, that child is now in a completely different place than they otherwise would have been. And giving them the tools and the resource services, to really be able to address those experiences when they happen. build up that resiliency. So, and then, like you said, Tim, you know, this idea of being able to be in multiple places, man, God just showed me early on that this is not about me, like this cannot be about and it shouldn't be about me. And so the earlier on that I could just let go of all that. And and then it frees me to empower other folks and train and equip them to do the work because it's never been about me to begin with. This is all about how can we take this to as many people as possible. Now, I wish that I would be out of a job someday if there were no more war or conflicts on the planet and I was out of a job I would be the happiest man alive, but I just don't see that happening. There's no shortage of need for people to receive emotional healing for the wounds that they've incurred through violence. So yeah, I just want to look at how can we get it to more people in more places around the world?

Tim Buxton 
Hmm You know, as we talk even now, I think there's just so much excitement in me that's like man, yes, let's do this call we can do it and and I've just so valued the ways that we've been able to partner and work together to achieve some of that, in the Middle East and here in Australia, and But even as we we talk, you know, there's this like, passion and excitement. There's also this kind of stock realization that it's a lot of hard work. And, and, you know, your, your co founders of this organization, you're trying to raise the support yourself. To be able to do this, there's, there's no kind of bottomless cash pit that just enables you to do whatever you feel in Will you feel like there, there's just no end to the need. If only there were resources to do that. And I think of some of the people that might be listening and thinking, yes, I want to help I want to serve I want to get into this and even myself with with the work that we're trying to do here, there can be just, there can be some discouraging moments of thinking, Man, I've got all this vision I want to be able to do this, but somehow it just seems like pushing a cart uphill. Can you kind of talk into getting real a bit I guess here and talk into some of those experiences and and I don't want to kind of shift the mood too much. Because I'm loving that. Ultimately, I'm with you. I'm like, I want to get off this this call and and and get back on the phone and and dream ups and plans but but maybe talking to some of their like, some of the real discouraging low moments and maybe what got you through them?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, I mean, yeah, talking about money is always a buzzkill. It's always just really discouraging. But it, it does feel like pushing the cart uphill. But those exciting times are they do come and it's always when somebody gives you no, right when we needed it. Like there's been numerous times where we are just about out of money, we just about need to lay people off. And somebody comes through a donor and saves us. And it's it's stressful for me living on that, on that edge where I'm teetering. teetering on the point of, you know, of having to close shop. I don't like that it's super uncomfortable for me, I don't live my life. Like, we don't I don't feel that.

Tim Buxton 
What do you do when that thought comes through your mind? I mean, that's, that's almost like the worst. So I mean, for me personally thinking, all this might be the end of everything onboard our lives into and we know, this is what this world leads right now. But somehow it's looks like it's coming to an end. What? What is that like?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, well, you know, for me, Tim, our faith is extremely important to us. And so this this work is from the very beginning, it's all been God's work. Yeah, it's and he's got the resources. So I, I just know he's going to come through, I just know God's going to come through, but it's, it is stressful for me, and maybe I don't have enough faith, maybe there's a faith issue. And I just need to have more faith, and I wouldn't get stressed about it. But I still managed to find myself getting really stressed at times, but in my heart, I know that God's going to come through and he's going to provide and if he doesn't, it's his work anyways, it's not mine. So if he wants it to close down, we'll close down and all I'll go do something else that that's not a problem. But I don't I do feel ownership of it. I do feel like this is our baby to the opponent that we've nurtured that we've developed, we've grown and it poured into. But on the other hand, I do hold it loosely that this is God's and I would love to see him use it for His glory, how whatever, wherever he wants. And so we're trusting in Him to provide the resources for that. But it does get difficult what we're trying to do now is have some of these what we call stones of remembrance, like these times where people have come through, I've got to just start writing them down, we've got to document them because there's been numerous times where we are on the brink of collapse, and somebody comes through God provides and so so going back and remembering those looking at those times, that's that's really an encouragement. Now not only do we not have money to do it, but usually this is when God calls us to expand that we don't even have the money to do we're currently doing we don't know where it's gonna come from and now God you're saying expand to this place like so. When when we do and then God shows up and God provides you know that it was all God You know, it was a miracle. So that's a privilege, Zin miracles seeing Gods show up as an absolute privilege. And so the those difficult times aren't get wearing on me but man, I could just get so pumped and energized when we just see God show up and do a miracle. Yeah, who gets to do that? Who gets to see? Yeah, show up like that. Right?

Tim Buxton 
I think too, it's really, it's really important because I think there's other people out there wanting to launch out, wanting to help people wanting to maybe start a similar work wanting to go to Africa, or whatever it is that their heart is set on this. And to know that, hey, even decades into this, it's still going to be tough. It's, you're still going to have to, you know, hold tight things, challenges, and it might not be money, it could be relational issues that that come up, or health or whatever the circumstances that can rock, rock us in this work. To have that courage to move forward. Yeah, it's something I appreciate. And I think you can really, really do a great job in speaking into so thanks for thanks for being candid about just the the real struggles, those moments you have where you feel like it could end.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, thanks, Tim. I appreciate that. It does get tempting, you know, as you grow, and you get larger in size, to say, Oh, yeah, you know, we relied on faith back then. But now we're bigger. And now I need to do this, and I need to do this. And we need to put this practice in place. But I just realized that for us. And I think this probably holds true for everybody. But Faith is the answer, you know, that we're just trusting in God to provide and that's been from the beginning. And when things are at their worst, that's the time to double down on faith. You know, now that's the time to say, Okay, this is this is what we're called to do is to step out, Fe. So now when it seems like it makes even less sense than ever before, that's the time we got to double down on that. That's the time we got to really, really dive into it. Because it's either going to we're going to go down in a in a ball of flames, or something miraculous is going to happen here, one of the two, but it's not going to be mediocre. It's not going to be in the middle. So go out, and we're just trusting in you. Yeah, we're gonna put an arm out. So and I love seeing God show up in that place. What a privilege that is, you know, seeing God's show up that way. But we're so we intentionally miss it, because we get afraid. And we pull back and we say, Oh, well, we step back from that.

Tim Buxton 
Yeah, when we get into the show, we shrink back. And dude, just the other day, I was just had this real stressful moment. And I just was just really overwhelmed, really stressed about a certain situation. And I just remember having to go down.. I'm fortunate enough to live near the beach and just go down and just sit and contemplate. And a good friend of mine just said, Look, just this is when it's this is when you need to lean into trust and faith in this moment, right? Trust and faith, now when your stomach is churning, when your mind is thinking it's like losing hope or what, you know, it was just one of those kind of moments. And then there's this picture that came into my mind of like, you know how the eagle kicks the baby out of the nest, when it's trying to teach it to fly. I mean, it just seems like the cruelest thing you could possibly do is to like, kick this little, you know, baby Eagle out of a nest to plummet to its seemingly death yet it's in that moment when it learns to fly. And so many times I would have resigned to comfort and resort to Well, I'm just going to medicate right now with chocolate or TV or whatever else that kind of, you know, calling a friend to complain or I can lean into like, I'm going to be still. I'm going to trust it's gonna be okay. And just maybe just maybe, like, this could be the catalyst for me actually. Going to that next level. Can you think of an experience like that for you? where suddenly it's like, wow, this is amazing. One of the highest highs that you had, which I'm sure probably was preceded by, you know, some real like, challenge or difficulty. Is there anything that comes to mind maybe even just some of the highs and what what you've, you've done or some of the stories Someone that just blew you away.

Carl Gaede 
Um, well, one of the first times that we expand Well, okay, one of the first things we expanded in Uganda, we we expanded it into South Sudan. We kind of followed the El Rey as they got pushed out of Uganda and into South Sudan. So we went up into South Sudan to start an office. And, you know, it was it was just really difficult process. When I was moving my staff member up there to South Sudan. We literally got three flat tires, going up to up to sell study and really come back to Gulu one day to get the tire fixed because we didn't have another spare. So then went the next day, we went a different route up into South Sudan through a different border crossing and it was rainy season, we got stuck in the mud. And it's remote border. The guard was, you know, trying to shake us down for more money didn't let us pass. And you know, it's all kinds of stuff. We ended up getting stuck in the mud numerous times on the way up there, finally got to this village that we were going to about midnight, and just exhausted in driving all day, all through the night, get there at midnight. Somebody lets us sleep in their mud hut at night, this family, it gets out let's asleep in the mud. Hope. We wake up in the morning. And open the curtain to this mud hut and step outside. And it was a beautiful sunny day, beautiful mountains in the background and exit out of this mud hut. And it just we just knew it's right. This is what we're supposed to do. Like we persevered through all of that the night before the couple of days before just trying to get up there to South Sudan. And it all worked out and the sun was shining. And it was just this amazing feeling of peace knowing we're supposed to be here. And the lives that are going to be transformed because we persevered. And because we're here so that was just one story. And of course we moved to Iraq. That was that was amazing as well. When we expanded in Uganda to add Giovanni refugee settlement, when the this wave of South Sudanese refugees started coming down in 2014. We did not have the money to go up there. But we knew this was the the biggest refugee crisis on the planet right now at this point, we have to do something. And we didn't have the money to do what we were currently doing. We were way behind on budget. But we went ahead and expanded up into edge Imani and had a real hard time with various issues up there and with vehicles breaking down in office and stuff, but then we did it all worked out. And we got the money and it that ended up being an incredible office for us. Wow. And, and then moving to Iraq. You know, my kids loved Uganda. We spent eight years in Uganda, my daughter's one of them, spent half her life there. The other one spent two thirds of her life in Uganda. We had community we had friends, we had it just with her life was there. But then we sold everything in Uganda and moved to Iraq. And I went there a month before my family to get us situated with a house and a car and stuffing. And then when my family arrived, it was just in that day I was down in Erbil waiting for them to come and I downloaded some different UN reports and things I was reading this report about the CD and, and all the things they've gone through and in testimonials of people. And I remember sitting there in Erbil, and I was just weeping at these testimonials. These stories of what these women had been through with ISIS. And my family was arriving. And I was just so glad we were there to do this work to work. That's why we exist. That's, that's why two department exists. Like this is why I'm on the planet right now is to do this work. And so then going and picking up my family and taking them home. And it was just the most incredible feeling like we're here. We're doing it. We get to be involved. We get to be part of the healing. We get to be part of the restoration of communities and our families and our individual lives. And that was just the most incredible feeling when my family arrived. And literally a week later, my girls loved it. They loved Iraq, they said we would pick if we could pick me in Uganda or here I think we would pick year. Wow. And they had loved that that was their home. So that was an incredible experience that my family was so happy. They were loving that we could be they could be in the work too because we were so close and that we were right where we were supposed to be. Wow. Yeah. So so great adventure. It's been a great journey of just Watching God move and watching God do miracles.

Tim Buxton 
Well, Carl, we kind of coming to a close here. And I was thinking this is again bringing me back to Iraq. And I remember I remember when you landed by yourself and we're waiting for, for your family to come remember catching up with you know, Bill there and and in such a short period of time able to accomplish so much to be able to set up an office there, that is still running today we met with the team last night over over zoom doing some further training. But both of us kind of out now families, you know, we had to leave it at a very similar time in moment in, it wasn't an easy thing decision for others of us to to kind of to leave. The work continues in both what we have done. And we find ourselves here in the West again. Some would say strategically, so you can you can continue to grow and expand and not maybe beats so tunnel visioned into one location. But COVID has kind of made things difficult for us to kind of end for you in particular to get out there. And I know that that's, that's really difficult. But without kind of harping too much on that and making so much of that. I'd love for you just to maybe just as we wrap things up, talk a bit about what's on the horizon. What's, what are some ways that people are interested in learning about what's what, what to opponent has planned? Could you just give us a snapshot of what you're up to? Now that you're back here, rebuilding re-harnessing seeing you thinking about moving again? Can you let us in on any little secret? So or just inspire us as to what you see on the horizon?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, sure. Um, I do feel like I'm strategically placed here, I do believe that God brought us back my family to the US. As the CEO, the organization is just difficult to oversee all of the work when I'm running a country office in one location. So even though my family hated it, when we moved back, we hated it. And I felt like I was, you know, throwing a temper tantrum like a spoiled little child saying, God, why why I want to be in Iraq. But I can see now that this is probably a good place for us to be. And some of the, you know, I want to expand anywhere, there's a need, I would go anywhere that there's a need. I would love to see us expand in the Middle East. I think there's a lot of areas going on there. I would love to see us in places like Afghanistan or Pakistan, places where they maybe don't have the best view of Americans. There maybe aren't used to Americans coming in providing help or peaceful solutions. I would love to go places like that. I would love to be in Greece, where refugees are just getting off the boats. Place like Lesbos. We've talked about South America with some of the conflicts that are going on there at the border of Venezuela and Colombia, Venezuelans are fleeing and into Colombia. Is there a way that we could provide relief there. We do have some work going on here in the United States. We open an office in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis, St. Paul, to try to work with refugees and immigrants that have come here. We will love to expand that and do more. Just last Sunday, a week ago. I was in another part of Wisconsin four hours away. I was contacted by a man who was resettled in that part of Wisconsin, four hours from me. He had been he was a refugee from Congo, and he was a Naka Valley refugee settlement in Uganda and went through to depose programs. So he contacted me here in the US asked me to go over there so that we have a ton of refugees here in Appleton, Wisconsin, a lot of Congolese refugees, Somali refugees, and so could we do a program to to Pono over there. So we're looking at potentially other places in the US as well, where there might be needs. But really, our heart is to be overseas and operating in places where refugees have fled from more accomplished and see how can we just be a light there and how can we bring His love and His healing into those places?

Tim Buxton 
Man Well, I'm hoping we can continue to be a part of that to call. We are working together here and in was a privilege to have you. And I think grace came with you. And Julie, when you came out that time, you've had a big year too, in your, you know, with your daughter, Emma, getting married and, and there's just lots going on. And I can see just the goodness of God on your life as you've had this season back in the States, and I'm looking forward to just watching it grow, watching it expand, and hopefully getting in on the action with your mate. It's just gonna be it's exciting. It really is.

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, thanks, Tim. And you too. Yeah, we're excited to be partnering with you guys. And the great work that you're doing. Just can't wait to see where this all goes.

Tim Buxton 
Look, if people want to learn more, if they want to support you guys, I want to give to your work. They want to offer their expertise or just help you in any way, where do they go? What can they do?

Carl Gaede 
Yeah, the best way is our website just Tutapona.com. And by the way, I never said it earlier, what to opponent means to the opponent is a Swahili word. And it means we will be healed. And just like in all the stuff we're talking about with post-traumatic growth, and, you know, just being future-minded, and looking to the future, that Yeah, today might be terrible. But we will be healed. My tomorrow will be better than my today. And it's all about this, you know, healing as a collective effort. Yes. The idea that it's not an individual pursuit. So we will be healed, as Tutapona. So tutapona.com is the best place for people to go and find out more, go to Facebook or Instagram and check us out there as well.

Tim Buxton 
Man, Carl, it has been so good. You guys are on the front lines doing incredible work. And you really are bringing justice, and hope and healing in some of the most darkest parts of the world. And you're bringing light, and I love it. And I'm so thankful to chat with you. I'm gonna get you to stick around for a bit of a bonus round, which is what my dear Patreon guests get when they support the podcast and come behind us. So we'll continue that conversation in a bit. But for now, thank you so much for being on the Justice Matters podcast, Carl, Appreciate you.

Tim Buxton 
Well, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Carl Gaede. If you want to learn more about the work of Tutapona, head on over to their website, it's www.tutapona.com. And of course, as always, if you want to hear the rest of my conversation with Carl, become a patron, all you have to do is head on over to patreon.com forward slash justice matters. You pay $5 a month to support the podcast to help us keep pumping out these videos and sharing these conversations. And you automatically get access to these bonus content interviews that I have with all of my guests on the scenes extras can interact with me as well as the podcast just that little bit more. So head on over to www.patreon.com/justicematters just to do that. You can even support us for as little as $1 a month. Now I also want to say a special thank you to everyone that sponsored the You Belong "Dive to Thrive" that we just participated in this weekend. And Oh my goodness we're so thankful for the support. jumping out of a plane was a first and an incredible experience. Now for the formalities of the show. I'd like to say a special mention thanks to music artist John Ardnt and David Gungor, also known as the brilliance for the music track that we use on the show go check them out "The Brilliance" wherever you find good music. I'm sure you'll find their work. And of course, my mate Jose Biotto, special shout out to you mate for your audiovisual expertise in producing the show. Lastly, if you're enjoying the show, the podcast would you consider rating it, maybe leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, subscribing on YouTube. There's so many ways you can share and get the word out and help us in this way. Thank you so so much. Please join me again soon for another episode of Justice Matters. I am your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.