Episode 10: Mayada Kordy-Khalil — How a Kurdish Journalist Gives Voice to Refugees

Mayada Kordy-Khalil is a producer and presenter for SBS radio in Australia. She also serves as an interpreter for the many Kurdish speaking refugees that have recently settled in Australia from Iraq and Syria.

Along with her family, Mayada (May) migrated to Sydney, Australia in the mid-1970s from the city of Kobani in Syria (Western Kurdistan). Her journey into journalism started in the early 1990s as a contributor on SBS radio and also as an interpreter.

Mayada continues to use her role as an interpreter to serve alongside Kurmanj Kurdish speaking refugees. In this capacity, Mayada is often found travelling to regional towns such as Wagga Wagga, Armidale & Coffs Harbour to assist families from Iraq & Syria that have recently settled in Australia. 

For the past 5 years, I have regularly been on the receiving end of interviews with Mayada for her SBS radio program, whether it be during my time in the Kurdish region of Iraq or related to my work with youBelong here in Australia. This time I have the privilege of interviewing Mayada and sharing her amazing story with you. 

You can learn more about her work & listen to SBS Kurdish radio by visiting SBS Kurdish and tune in on your preferred platform. You can also reach out to Mayada and follow her on twitter @mayada_kk.

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Full Transcript

Tim Buxton: without any support whatsoever?

Mayada: Everybody fled, everybody. So, the population of Kobanî, I would say this is approximate, maybe 50,000 back in 2014, and the surrounding villages, 350 villages. All fled. All fled, No one was left. Everybody fled. There is nowhere else to go because the Turkish border is the closest border to Kobanî; it's just like 10 to 15 kilometers… not even that.

Tim: Where did they flee into, into Turkey? 

Mayada: They fled to the border there... Well, they fled to the border, but then thank God. Back then, Turkey opened its borders and they fled to Turkey. It was a catastrophe, sleeping on the streets in parks. It was in September. Next month would be six years.

[music]

Tim: You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast, inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.

[music]

It's good to be with you for another episode. Today's guest is SBS journalist Mayada Kordy-Khalil. Now she is a curd from the town of Kobanî in Syria. Who migrated to Australia back in the early '70s, she was then just a teenager who came to Australia with her family and as we were talking off-camera, just after recording the episode, she was sharing with me how she's always had this personal desire to be a voice for others? I guess that's what drew her into journalism. Something she's wanted to do from a very young age. Not only has she been a voice through her journalism, but also is an interpreter for refugees, when they come here to Australia to find and start a new life. She's done that tirelessly and I've been so inspired by her along the way.

Now, I've known her for about five years. She would call me up while I was living in Kurdistan in the Northern part of Iraq there. She would interview me and over the years we've kept in touch. I've done some interviews for her in Australia through You Belong but this time I get to be the one interviewing her and she gets to be a guest for me. I really can't wait for you to hear her story today and to hear this episode, you're going to learn much from her as she shares. I think you're going to be inspired, truly inspired by her life and her work. This is my chat with Mayada Kordy-Khalil. [music] May, welcome to the Justice Matters podcast. It is so good to have you on.

Mayada: Thank you, Tim. After all these years, all this time, we've been speaking and talking on the phone. I've interviewed you a few times, but good to see you too.

Tim: I know. How does it feel to be on the other end of this phone call and I'm interviewing you? I'm getting to pull out of you--

Mayada: You've turned the table around. [laughs]

Tim: Oh my goodness. This is the first time we've actually seen each other face to face.

Mayada: Yes, it is.

Tim: This is as good as it gets with all the COVID restriction and Zooms everyone's doing these days. My face lit up when I saw you because I could just--

Mayada: Thank you.

Tim: It's been wonderful to get to know you over the years. I remember the first time you reached out. I think we would talk back and forth when we were living in Northern Iraq?

Mayada: In Kurdistan region. Yes. I think I did interview you once from there. I can't remember. I can't recall or maybe after you got back to Australia.

Tim: Yes. We've done a few. Obviously, with the work that we've been doing into WOMBA with the formation of You Belong and just welcoming Kurdish speaking, refugees from Iraq and Syria. Now that they have been coming back or coming to Australia to settle. It's been great still getting to get in touch with you and talk with you from time to time.

Mayada: Yes, it is good, isn't it?

Tim: Yes. You've been busy of course and we'll get into some of the ways you've been. Your incredible skills and your connections in the community have been put into good use to serve those families that are coming here to Australia but I would love to really just kick things off and just get to know, get behind the scenes of your story. May because you are Kurd from Syria, from western Kurdistan region, and for a lot of people it's hard to even pinpoint where is Syria on a map, nit alone. Where is Western Kurdistan?

Mayada: Or Kabani. If you say Kobanî, I'm sure everybody would know. [chuckles]

Tim: Exactly. Kobanî, it was a city that really-- I'm thinking right now at this, what happened in Lebanon just a last week with a terrible blast that rips through the heart of Beirut and really decimated much of the city, to be honest, when I saw that my heart also went back to some of the images and pictures of Kobanî. The city that was surrounded by ISIS on the Turkish Syrian border, those many years ago when ISIS was really in the middle of its high day.

Mayada: Yes, that was in 2014. There isn't a comparison between what's happened in Beirut, which is unfortunate. Heart goes to those people, but it was completely two different.

Tim: Two different situations.

Mayada: Kobanî, it's being rebuilt, but there is still work to be done.

Tim: The city was absolutely destroyed by ISIS. I've seen drone footage. In fact, a friend of mine colleague went into Kobanî literally just after it was-- you wouldn't say liberated, but after ISIS finally gave up and even that whole story it's a miraculous story and maybe something we could talk about. Kobanî is your hometown really, isn't it?

Mayada: Yes. Well, I was born there. Yes, for sure. I've spent most of my life here in Australia, so that's how I was born there and until my early teens, I was there and then mom and dad decided, that's it. We've got a come ba-- We, you know, to migrate and we came to Australia.

Tim: That was back in what? The early '70s, '80s?

Mayada: Mid '70s, we came my mom, dad, and four siblings.

Tim: Wow. My parents migrated to Australia from England now under completely different circumstances, but still, to think that my parents and your parents decided to move to Australia almost the same year and the same time, that's interesting and special. May, paint the picture for us, would you? Obviously, Syria and the region throughout the Middle East has been in constant upheaval, war, and violence. It's certainly not a place anyone in these conditions would want to raise a family. What was it like back then when your parents left and talk us through that whole journey from your perspective as a young teenager?

Mayada: Well, back then, it was obviously not as war-torn as now. It wasn't war-torn. It was no war. There was nothing back then, but it's just dad decided that through to other probably situation circumstances, maybe political circumstance, I was too young that's why. There wasn't any like, as there is now or what's happening? No, there wasn't. We weren't refugees. We migrated. My dad migrated here and arriving in Australia was in June. It was June and I could still have that smell when we arrived in Australia that, it was cool. It was early morning, the sun was rising. It was beautiful. Yes, it was. When you go somewhere or when you have some memory of that place that sticks in your head and to me, there was a distinct smell when we come it was a beautiful smell. [chuckles]

Tim: Wow. How amazing.

Mayada: [chuckles] Yes. When we arrived here, obviously my uncle was here. My mom's father was here, he was married. He's married to an Australian lady. We stayed with him for a little bit and then moved out, obviously. Back then, there weren't many Kurds, the Kurdish community. No one even knew what Kurds are.

Tim: There might even be many listening that still can't really pace, "Where are the Kurds? Who are the Kurds?" Maybe would you share for our listeners who--

Mayada: Yes, the Kurds are a nation who speak Indo-European, which is nothing like Arabic or Turkish, all of them. The closest language to Kurdish would probably be Persian, they come from the same tree. Kurdish is an Indo-European language and Kurdistan was divided during the first world war. The French and the English divided Kurdistan among Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. Those countries have a slice of Kurdistan each.

Tim: Someone even argued, maybe not Armenia itself, but there are many Armenian Kurds as well.

Mayada: Yes. There are Kurds in Armenia as well, but I don't think Armenia is part of [crosstalk] because Armenia is Armenia, is not part of [crosstalk]

Tim: Definitely, but you occupy quite-- The Kurds, as a result, have spread throughout those regions quite considering.

Mayada: The population of the Kurds, believe it or not, it's estimated at 40 million, 35 to 40 million.

Tim: 40 million people. No country. Stateless.

Mayada: Stateless, yes.

Tim: 40 million people stateless.

Mayada: Yes.

Tim: That is just mind-boggling.

Mayada: Yes, it is.

Tim: Australia's 25, what? 30 million?

Mayada: Yes, 25.

Tim: 25 million, so almost double the size of Australia and they don't even have their own state.

Mayada: That's right. Yet you have other states in the Middle East or elsewhere, there's only a couple of hundred thousand people and they have their own state, and they can [live in] their own state. That's a bit of a briefing about the Kurds in Kurdistan.

Tim: From the time I spent living in Kurdistan region of Iraq, there's definitely something to the identity of feeling that sense of some of the saying, some of the proverbs that they even share amongst themselves as we are the orphans of the universe and the mountains are our only friends. This feeling of deep betrayal, of being second-class citizens. Of just really not feeling they have the freedom to be a nation. Even in many places, to even speak their own language.

Mayada: Which that has now improved a little bit, speaking your language. Years and years ago, for example, when we were back in Syria, of course, there's no school in Kurdish. We weren't educated.

Tim: Everything was Arabic, right?

Mayada: Everything was Arabic. I remember you'd be punished if you spoke Kurdish at school. There were punishments, but it's come a long, long way now. Even in other parts, but now because there is the Kurdistan region, that's why everybody loves going to Kurdistan region because that is the only part we're liberated or governs itself.

Tim: There has some sense of autonomy.

Mayada: Yes. Some sense of autonomy, even though there is a central government.

Tim: Your family, your dad with the sense of, love for his children, and wanting to make sure that he gives them the best chance at life, joins his brother, your uncle, here.

Mayada: No, his brother-in-law.

Tim: His brother-in-law, okay. Your aunt, sorry.

Mayada: No, my uncle. My mom's brother is here, not my dad's brother.

Tim: It was your mom's brother, okay.

Mayada: Yes, my mom's brother.

Tim: I'm glad we got that right.

Mayada: Yes.

Tim: Your mom's brother and so they've rejoined, I'm sure that was a happy day when you guys came here and--

Mayada: Yes. Dad, God bless his soul, he passed away. It is exactly today 12th of August 1994, 26 years ago dad passed away. We had a very, very special place in my heart.

Tim: Oh my gosh. Thanks for sharing that, May. That's real special. I think I went to several funerals and whenever we would see families, we would say [foreign language].

Mayada: Yes. Something like that. [foreign language]

Tim: This indicates, the Kurds have very different dialects as well.

Mayada: Oh, yes. We've got here. We've got quite the dialects, yes.

Tim: God bless him and your family. I'm sure he's looking down and thinking-- A very, very proud father to see the ways you guys are-

Mayada: I hope so.

Tim: -carrying on the legacy. Your uncle, interesting fact started the first Australian Kurdish society-

Mayada: Association.

Tim: -association, yes.

Mayada: Yes. Shahin Bekir is his name. He founded the first Australian Kurdish Association, of course, with other members of the Kurdish community. When we arrived in Australia in 74' there were also Kurds, it was only a handful, not even a handful, but mainly were Kurds from southeastern Turkey, so from Kurdistan, Turkey. I think late '60s, there was something between the Australian government and Turkish government for wanting workers. They were just to come and work. There were some families there, but none from Syria or other parts. I think we were a couple of families from Kurds from Syria, but none from Iraqi Kurdistan back then would have been called Iraqi Kurdistan. Then gradually after the 1988, the chemical attack in Iraq… [the “Anfal” attack] slowly, the Kurds started to become refugees. Then in the first Gulf War and the second Gulf War, that's when the influx started, and of course, lately, what's been happening Iraq and Syria and the ISIS situation.

Tim: Just wave after wave. It's depressing, honestly, to think of how many different conflicts that have forced displacement over the years.

Mayada: There is a saying in Kurdish, "We fall, and we'll keep on getting up."

Tim: I'd tell you, your positive attitude in it all is I think testimony to that, whenever I speak with you and talk with you, you're so full of hope, which I love in the midst of it all.

Mayada: You've got to be, otherwise we would have been destroyed by now. Even despite all what's happened, despite all the oppression, the Kurds, even though not being educated in Kurdish, most parts, the only part that was educated in Kurdish was in Iraqi Kurdistan, it was some kind of an autonomy, and in primary, Kurdish was taught, but in the other parts, no Kurdish was taught, but the language, verbal, kept on going, like for me, for many, many other people coming like I came to Australia, I self-taught myself to read and write in Kurdish.

Tim: What was that like? You come as a teenager, obviously, you don't know any English, I'm assuming when you get here?

Mayada: I had basic English through school. We had one lesson a week of school, the alphabet, you know the basics of grammar a little bit.

Tim: That would have helped?

Mayada: Yes. It helped.

Tim: At least, get a start. What was it like when you first got here? You talk about the smell, just being, "Oh, this is amazing." Got to have been some struggles.

Mayada: It was hard especially for my parents, especially with my auntie, my uncle's wife, Robin, because, English speaking, you couldn't communicate in the beginning, but thank God, Robin spoke a little bit of Kurdish, her and mom and dad would-- It was difficult, but it was okay.

Tim: Yes, and you had the society that your uncle or the association that your uncle began in the Australian Kurdish?

Mayada: Yes, there's Australian Kurdish Association, which was formed in 1979, that was the first Kurdish Association in Australia.

Tim: You got quite involved in that here?

Mayada: Yes, I did. I did get involved in it, even though being so young, just getting to know the community, introducing the community to the broader communities here, to let them know who the Kurds are. That takes time for people to realize or to know, it took time for people to know who the Kurds are, even though, until now, not many people know, but it's better than it used to be.

Tim: I'm sure, I could imagine those that are newly arrived to Australia, to be able to go to your community in your group and just feel a sense of like, "Oh, familiarity, at least maybe for them, it would have been help?

Mayada: Let me tell you it to-- Back then, the Kurds, because the community was closely knit, but unfortunately at the moment, I don't know that association, I don't know, but because of the different political parties, I'm sure it's all over, the whole world is like that, but that's natural because of political things.

Tim: Differences.

Mayada: Yes, differences and different ideologies.

Tim: Right. You almost need an association for each small little group?

Mayada: Yes. The Kurdish communities, even though there's a bit of a division, but that's okay.

Tim: You know, right now, obviously, there's been a recent opening of humanitarian refugees up-until obviously, COVID restrictions has stopped all the flights coming in, there were many Kurds from Syria and from Iraq and Yazidis and other Syrians and others from various ethnic and background were coming here.

Mayada: Yes, there were quite because aside of being a journalist, I am an interpreter as well, I am involved in those. A lot of Yazidis arrived, which they speak Kurdish Kurmanji and quite a few feminists from Kobanî have arrived and also from other regions in Syria, like Kurdish regions in Syria have arrived, but the majority I'd say, are Yazidis, of course, what's happened-

Tim: Yes, the genocide.

Mayada: - the genocide, which is very sad. We've got I'm sure, a majority have arrived in Toowoomba in Queensland, we've got some in Wagga Wagga in Armadale and in Coffs Harbour, these three regional areas in this New South Wales. Yes, there has been, but as you said, lately because of COVID, no flights are allowed to, but hopefully, yes.

Tim: Now, you mentioned some from Kobanî and I want to kind of touch back on that just for a bit because I'd love to just hear how you got into journalism as well, and a little bit about that too, but Kobanî, we mentioned it at the top of the episode here, it was surrounded by ISIS, and only a few remaining Kurdish fighters were in without any support whatsoever, in fact the Turkish--

Mayada: Everybody fled, everybody. The population of Kobanî, I would say-- This is approximate, maybe 50,000 back in 2014, and the surrounding villages, 340-50 villages, all fled. No one was left; everybody fled. There is nowhere else to go because the Turkish border is the closest border to Kobanî, it's just like, 10-15 kilometers.

Tim: Where did they flee into Turkey?

Mayada: They fled to the border, but then thank God, back then Turkey opened its borders and they fled into Turkey. It was a catastrophe, people were sleeping on the streets, in parks, it was in September, next month will be six years. In parks, anything, until camps and things were organized. Then four months later, when it was liberated, Kobanî, people slowly, slowly went back.

The people who went back, only people who had farms or machinery, for example, my uncles who have farms and villages and homes, and a lot of machinery, we're talking about tractors, harvesters, other machinery, plowing machinery, they had to take all with them to Turkey and then bring them back. My uncle said, they couldn't not go back, they have to get back because you can't just leave it deserted. They went back, but the young ones, majority of the young ones didn't go back, majority of the young ones-

Tim: Maybe some went on further into Europe?

Mayada: Yes, a lot of my cousins are in Europe. I've got quite a handful that just went back to Kobanî, but more went to Europe. It was a very sad time, a very sad, depressing time back then, you wouldn't know what's going to happen, as you said, like 90% of Kobanî was destroyed-

Tim: Absolutely decimated.

Mayada: -no buildings, nothing.

Tim: That must have just been awful for you to know that your family are over there and your home town is absolutely destroyed.

Mayada: Absolutely destroyed, but it's built, not all of it, but it's getting rebuilt.

Tim: Now, there's a small population back there again and-

Mayada: There is a small, I would say about maybe 60, 70% of the people is back. Majority of it is still built, but one side of it, it's still just destroyed. The people who can not afford to build again, I don't know how they live, they didn't go back, they just left or they went to Turkey.

Tim: Overall, there's still this limbo, there's this quest for Syria and Western Kurdistan to be liberated as well, and for them to have their own Kurdish State. Is there still talk of that?

Mayada: The Kurds would love to have that, but let's be realistic. At this time, this is my opinion, I don't think this will happen now, let's go step-by-step. First of all, get your cultural rights first, then ask for an independent-

Tim: Yes, it's a long process like you said, even--

Mayada: It's a long process. I think the majority of Kurds in Syria say, we would be happy to have our cultural rights, be educated in Kurdish, and Arabic, of course. Just get cultural rights first, then some political rights, maybe have representatives in the Parliament as well, so step by step.

Tim: Even though Kobanî is being rebuilt, 60, what? 70% population, what is the atmosphere like though back there at the moment?

Mayada: Tim, the reason I'm talking about Kobanî is because my family, my uncles, and aunts, relatives are there. That's why I'm more familiar with that area or that town. Yes, it's built let's say 60-70 maybe to 80% has been built but it's still quite a bit of it's still been destroyed.

Tim: They're living in--

Mayada: They're still living, people are still living in fear because they don't know what's the future holding. They don't know what's tomorrow or the next hour is holding. There is that fear.

Tim: What makes me think about the family members that are coming here to Australia and not only have they experienced indescribable suffering, the pain, and the trauma that they've endured. They've probably been waiting for years in a refugee camp to finally get permission to come here. They get here, they have to leave family and friends behind. They don't know, they hear the news of what's going on in Afrin, or in other parts of the region and they're worried sick about how their family are doing, and maybe even feeling guilty that they're here. There's so much suffering that they're going through.

Mayada: Yes, they do. Speaking of being guilty, a lot must have been feeling guilty. I almost feel guilty, they say, that I'm here and the rest of my family or the rest of my brothers and sisters are still there. What am I doing here, if they can't come here. There is that guilt too but on the other hand, they are very, very grateful to the Australian government, they were able to come to Australia, very grateful.

Tim: You've had the opportunity to really help first-hand. You're a journalist with the SBS, what's your role with them that you have?

Mayada: I started with SBS, years and years ago when it was founded by Mr. Shahin Bekir, the Kurdish program back in the say mid-'80s.

Tim: Wow.

Mayada: Back then it only had maybe one program a week. Then I was just going there as a contributor and then gradually, when the program became two programs a week, that's when I was put on as a casual and then gradually, working there.

Tim: You built it up and grew it.

Mayada: We only have two programs a week, on Fridays and Sundays. That's how I started with SBS Kurdish program, but my other job is also is working as an interpreter, interpreting for the non-English speakers; Kurdish speakers, not English speakers. I've been involved with government organizations and non-government organizations. I try my best to help people, assist people language-wise.

Tim: You have a huge, huge heart, and you've traveled many times to these rural communities, [crosstalk] to really help in Wagga Wagga.

Mayada: I have. Wagga Wagga, yes. To Coffs Harbour, I have.

Tim: What's that experience been like? Your first-hand interacting with these families and the community, what's it like? What are some the challenges? What are some of the good stories that are coming out of what's happened?

Mayada: Unfortunately, the most recent refugees are the Yazidis, the Kurdish-Kurmanji speakers. I don't think there are any nice stories. They're all sad stories that you hear. I can move to journalism now, through my interviews, really start helping, they're very sad stories and of course, through my interpreting again a lot of sad stories.

Tim: You had to listen and interpret and translate, awful. How do you do that? How do you carry those stories yourself and listen to them and not- they've got to affect you?

Mayada: There's a saying in Kurdish, humans are made of blood and flesh, so of course it affects you but then you have to show your professionalism that it doesn't affect you. Of course, it does affect you eventually.

Tim: You have a huge heart. I know you're able to carry those stories and find a place to empathize with those families as you listen to them but also continue the incredible work that you do. I've enjoyed speaking on the phone to you in the middle of one of our picnics up in Toowoomba and you hear the music in the background. Despite again all the suffering, it is wonderful to see them when they do get out and they do dance. It's a special thing to be able to do in the midst of--

Mayada: I think dancing, music is the Kurds, it's a way of showing a little bit of happiness, a little bit of forgetting a little bit, just be in that moment.

Tim: What would you say to the Australian community, the established Australian community that's receiving again, new families. Over the years, we can continue to open our doors and borders to refugees. Some would argue, we could be doing a lot more but what would you say to the established community? How we can care for these families, how we can embrace them? What are the ways that we can, you know?

Mayada: Tim, I think the Australian community or the broader community, I think, they do embrace refugees or migrants in general very well comparing to other places in the world that don't, but Australia does embrace. Australians do embrace refugees and migrants better than some other parts in the world.

Tim: For sure. Is there any advice, someone whose gone through the journey yourself, in terms of migrating here?

Mayada: Tim, I can speak on behalf of myself. I've been here 40-odd years, 46-47 years. I've grown up most of my life here. I have never ever been discriminated against. I have never been called names. I have never ever been threatened or anything either, so I cannot say anything because I've never been through it.

Tim: That's beautiful.

Mayada: I have never ever been through anything like that. I guess I'm lucky but maybe other people have. I can only speak on my behalf. I can't speak--

Tim: One of the beautiful things I'm seeing and I've witnessed even in Toowoomba and I think it's very important we really draw attention to the good stories is we see a community of people opening their doors. The Mayor, Paul Antonio is so open and doing some incredible work in local councils and there is such a even a unity amongst community groups and churches to really embrace and to really welcome them in, which has been a tremendous thing.

Mayada: Yes, they do, especially in the region of Australia, they embrace so much. They welcomed so much, for example in Armadale, Wagga Wagga, Coffs Harbour. There are some Kurds in Newcastle as well in New South Wales. See the members of parliament are embracing them, which is very nice. Let's talk about the good things too, not, you know.

Tim: Not only focus on the negative.

Mayada: On the negative thing. Yes.

Tim: That's what I love about your story. There is so much hope. There is so much a reminder, a belief that as Australians, we are a welcoming people. That is who we are, so let's continue to live into that as our identity. Let's continue to move forward and project that into our future, because- [crosstalk]

Mayada: That's why I love Australia.

Tim: Yes. Oh, man. It's in the richness. We reminded the richness of, what is Australia? Australia is the land of so many people coming together on this incredible sacred ground.

Mayada: Welcomes people from all over the world. No difference between this and that, that, that, or that religion or this religion. Everybody is welcome here.

Tim: Yes. It's beautiful. I even get that feeling too when I do listen to our welcome to ceremony and events and you hear the aboriginals, indigenous community welcoming people. It's a reminder that that is the heritage that they've passed on to us. It's the heritage of this place is, and it is beautiful. I'm certainly glad, May, that that was your experience and makes me proud to be an Australian.

Mayada: I'm proud to be an Australian too.

Tim: Looking to the future, what gives you hope? What's on the horizon for you? What do you--

Mayada: Nothing special on the horizon. I take the day as it comes.

Tim: Tell me about your children then. How old are they now?

Mayada: I've got three children, two girls, and a boy.

Tim: They are adults?

Mayada: Adults, yes. Adults, and my husband who is working, who manages a furniture shop. He only retired from his radio program recently. He was doing a radio program called 2000 FM or multicultural community radio. He was involved in it for 30 years. He gave up only recently, so yes. I've got a daughter who is a journalist. My other daughter is a lawyer, and my son is still studying.

Tim: What does he study?

Mayada: Well, he's different to the girls, boys are. He's becoming an electrician. He at the university with physical education and all that. Now he's an electrician.

Tim: Awesome. That's great. Well, hopefully, he finds what he really enjoys.

Mayada: Well, I think he's enjoying this one.

Tim: Oh good. Well, you've got a lawyer, you've got another journalist in the family, so incredible, and your son an electrician. Will we get to see you up in Toowoomba? Fingers crossed one of my hopes, is that when the travel restrictions ease up maybe in 2021, we've got to get you up to Toowoomba.

Mayada: Maybe and that's up to SBS and the management, so if we can get up there it would be good.

Tim: Yes, I think that will be wonderful. We'll definitely have to pull a few strings to try and see if we can make that happen. I'd love for that, really would. How can people follow your work? You mentioned you have a radio, there might even be some listeners with the Kurdish community, even if they share, but how can they keep in touch with your work?

Mayada: SBS Kurdish. Well, SBS Kurdish has got a website. It's www.sbs.com.au/kurdish.That's the website. Then SBS Kurdish has a Facebook page, just SBS Kurdish, our Facebook page. Yes, if anyone wanting, they can follow on our website, on the SBS Kurdish website. There are many stories, interviews. Majority would be in Kurdish, but there are ones in English as well. There are articles in English, so there is a variety of subjects, a lot of things on there.

Tim: I think the most important thing for me as this podcast is about creating a more beautiful world where everyone belongs. What does it take to create a world where people-- There is a more inclusive world, a more just world, a more loving and welcoming world? One of the first places we can start is to listen and to learn. Programs like SBS Kurdish and other programs out there are a great place to start. If you're living in Toowoomba, and you're noticing that there’s families from all around this beautiful world of ours, I'm sure you could find resources where you can learn.

Mayada: For example, SBS has 74 languages, and I'm sure…

Tim: 74 languages?

Mayada: I'm sure there are other communities that can benefit, plus Kurdish community.

Tim: Every night my dad would listen to SBS World News, and just loved feeling like I was connected to the world just because we would get fed information on what's happening everywhere. I jump on SBS, the app they have on the iPhone, and there's so much incredible resources out there that you can listen, learn, and really understand. Understanding is the number one thing. When we learn from each other and understand. Unfortunately, Hollywood and other forms of media just really paint for us such inaccurate depictions of reality and the people around us. It's just there's so much learn. I'm grateful for services like SBS that have those opportunities. I've certainly learned from them over the years and love the work that is being done, and I'm grateful for the part you get to play in that, May.

Mayada: Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you for your kind words, and it was lovely, lovely speaking to you as last.

Tim: Well, it has been wonderful chatting with you, May. I've been calling you May because that's how you're known in the Australian community, but amongst your Kurdish community, you're known as Mayada, and that sounds beautiful. A lovely name. It's wonderful to have just finally had the chance to catch up with you. I'm really, really glad you agreed to come on the show. I had to twist your arm, you didn't really want to come on. You've been someone who I've really enjoyed keeping in touch with over the years and learned so much, and really appreciate your heart. Thanks so much for coming on.

Mayada: Thank you, Tim. Thank you very much for inviting me and all the best.

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Tim: Well, there she is, the lovely Mayada Khalil. I hope you enjoyed the conversation that I had with her. She's an incredible human being, giving back to her community, giving back to refugees and other migrants that are making Australia home. She's a phenomenal correspondent for the SBS and just does an incredible job there. Go check out her work at SPS Kurdish. If you'd like to hear the rest of my conversation that I have with her, you can head over to www.patreon.com/justicematters for as little as $5 a month, you get access to this bonus content. You can actually be a patron for just $1 if that's what you're able to give to help us to continue to produce This show and to make it available for free for others out there.

I would like to thank Sue McDonald for coming on and being a supporter of youBelong. Thank you so much for your support and your generosity, it means so much to us. Now we're off to the credits, and I'd like to kick things off by thanking my main man, Jose Biotto. He is the audiovisual engineer and does a fantastic job just producing this show. I really appreciate you, my friend.

The music that you hear on this podcast comes from John Ardt and David Gungor. They're also known as The Brilliance, go them check out. Lastly, if you are enjoying the show, give me a high five, whether you're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or if you just want to subscribe on YouTube. What it does, is it really provides incredible feedback for other potential listeners to help get the word out and it makes a big deal to us in really being able to continue to provide and produce this podcast. I really appreciate it if you have just a couple of minutes to do that. That'd be awesome. Guys, join me again soon for another episode of Justice Matters. I'm your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.

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