Episode 04: Bob Goff — Dream Big and Change the World

Bob Goff is the New York Times Best-Selling Author of Dream Big, Everybody Always & Love Does, as well as an attorney who founded Love Does, a nonprofit human rights organization operating in Uganda, India, Nepal, Iraq and Somalia. Bob is a sought after speaker for leadership, church and university events, inspiring current and future influencers to get to the ”do” part of life. Choosing to live audaciously, Bob connects to audiences in a powerfully inspirational, yet down to earth manner. Love Does has now been translated into ten languages!

Bob has pioneered the vision of Love Does (formerly Restore International) to fight for freedom and human rights, working to improve educational opportunities and to be helpful to those in need of a voice and a friend. Love Does has worked with Uganda’s judiciary in bringing over 200 cases to trial, as well as pursuing justice, intervention and education for at risk women and children in Uganda, India, Nepal, Iraq and Somalia. Because of Bob’s vision and the work of Love Does, he serves as the Hon. Consul for the Republic of Uganda to the United States.

Bob has been a mentor to me for over 5 years, but really, if you know anything about Bob, you know that that simply means he has been a true friend — someone I know I can call on no matter what.

To Hang with Bob or invite him to speak at your next event, visit bobgoff.com. You can also follow Bob on Twitter & Instagram @bobgoff.

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/justicematters)

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Full Transcript

Bob Goff: It starts from caring enough to know somebody's name. I think we got a lot of people trying to do justice that don't know the names of the people they're trying to either advocate for or advocate against. I think that's one thing that we can bring. If faith is a big deal for you and you're listening, do this because this is what Jesus talks about.

If faith isn't a big deal for you, if you're none of the above, do the same thing. Just take a genuine interest in people. For no other reason, there's nothing on the other side of the equal sign. No agenda because when love has an agenda, it ain't love anymore. It just another program and we don't need more programs.

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Tim Buxton: You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton. A podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.

[music]

Tim: Hi there guys. Welcome to the Justice Matters podcast. Look, I just got off the call with today's guest and I am super excited. It is Bob Goff. He is a New York Times best-selling author of Love Does, Everybody Always, and now, Dream Big. We had a bit of a party because he found out that his book had just become number three on the New York Times bestsellers list. We got out the party-poppers, we got some red balloons here and we celebrated.

Guys, this guy is truly incredible. He is also the Ugandan consul to the United States. How's that for an achievement? That's because he's a retired lawyer. In fact, he gave up his firm, he handed over to a young guy and said, "Here's the keys." Walked away and said, "You don't owe me anything." Why? He wanted to start a non-profit called Love Does. That's how we met. He was traveling around and wanted to visit us in Iraq. I was living in Iraq with my family helping refugees and he wanted to come along and check out what we were doing. In fact, they came along and supported us as we were helping to educate children that had fled from ISIS.

He's gone on to build schools in other war-torn countries around the world including Afghanistan, in Nepal, Somalia. These are crazy places guys. He really has been on the forefront of using his life to make a profound difference and impact in the lives of those less fortunate and especially in some of the most dangerous and war-torn countries around the world. Over the years, I've gotten to know Bob also as a close friend. He's a guy I've been able to call up at some really low times and also to celebrate with. That's the unique thing about him.

Guys, not many people, not many New York Times best selling authors will put their cellphone number in the back of their book. That's what he does. He's put it in there and you can call him. He's made himself available. We talk about a lot of these things. These core values and passions in our lives that make us who we are, that make us want to make a difference in this world. Every time I get off the phone with him I leave inspired to make a difference. That's what podcast is about. How we can inspire people through conversations with people that are out there doing it to make a difference in this world. A world where everyone belongs.

There's nobody else I'd really want to have as a part of my guest to launch this podcast out into the world. It's a dream that I've had for a couple of years now and he's been one of my biggest cheerleaders. This conversation is pretty incredible. It's so much fun. We talked about a stack of things. You're going to love it. I can't wait to share Bob with you today.

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Tim: All right. Hey Bob, it is so good to be able to chat with you. This is my brand new podcast that I'm launching and you're going to be one of my first guests. I'm so very excited.

Bob: Come on. Congratulations. Boy, a lot of people are going to get touched. I know you've been such a big influence in my life. I'm just so glad that more people get a little dose of Tim.

Tim: Oh man. Bob, thank you. Today, we're going to have a party because I jumped on the New York Timesbestseller. You have just launched your third book. Well, it's really your fourth book, right?

Bob: Yes. I did lose one along the way there.

Tim: You've launched your third book and I found out that it's going to be what number?

Bob: Number three.

Tim: Number three on the New York Times bestseller's list. I got myself some party poppers here.

Bob: Yes baby. Come on. Pop that bad boy.

Tim: I've got the only copy that's in Australia. Shh. Don't tell anyone. It's actually a photocopy of another one of your books. I've read it, most of it at least, on Audible as soon as it got out. I think we need to pop this bad boy-

Bob: Let's do that.

Tim: -and celebrate.

Bob: Come on.

Tim: Yes.

[laughter]

Bob: You'll be cleaning that up for a while.

Tim: Oh, that and the rest of the duct tape that's holding everything up in this set here. I'm just so thankful that you would come on. I know you've probably been jumping on podcast after podcast and you've got lots of engagements with your book.

Bob: Actually, I don't because I'm not peddling books. I just talk to a couple of friends and that's good enough. I don't do actually that very many because I would rather just talk to a couple of friends than talk to everybody.

Tim: Oh, man.

Bob: I'm just so glad to be talking to you.

Tim: I know getting on top of the New York Times bestsellers books is not necessarily your greatest ambitions. However, getting this message out to people to dream big, to live their life unhindered by any of the fear or anything that's held them back is what's important to you. I don't think there's anybody at this moment in time that we have where there's people that are experiencing a lot of setbacks, there's a lot of uncertainty in the world and your voice, it's been a trusted voice in my life.

I've called you up several times when I've been at those defining moments of life. I've shared a few tears with you. To hear your voice on the other end pushing me forward, encouraging me, those little bits of advice along the way have helped. I'm just glad that I get the opportunity to share you in this platform with my audience. We're going to hopefully talk a bit about some of the areas especially for me that I'm passionate about is areas of justice. Areas of fighting for the oppressed.

When I think about your journey as you've talked about, I love the way you've referred to yourself as a recovering lawyer. You have used that in incredible ways to fight for the oppressed around the world. For those that maybe haven't read your book or are just learning a bit about who you are, can you talk a bit about your story coming from being a lawyer to fighting against witchdoctors and then opening a school for witchdoctors?

Bob: [laughs] Ain't that crazy? Just briefly, I practiced law for 32 years and I decided to go straight. [laughs] Just stop being that guy. Really what happened is little by little, we started doing some stuff overseas. I saw God didn't seem to be very fond of lawyers but he's nuts about kids. What I started to do is spending more and more time in Uganda and then in India. I wrote a book. I don't know how to make cupcakes, I wrote a book and we gave all the money away but they sold a couple of them.

We then started schools in Mogadishu and Iraq where you were. I think there're maybe eight countries. The newest ones have been in Afghanistan where we're teaching little girls that the Taliban say you can't learn how to read and write, we're teaching them how to read and write. [chuckles] A bit like in your face.

Tim: Oh my gosh. Not cool.

Bob: We are building right now. The walls are going up in the Virunga jungle in Congo.

Tim: Come on, get out.

Bob: It's so fun. All of this just took me away from the office more and more from my day job as a lawyer until-- I live in San Diego and my office was in Seattle, Washington which is 1900 miles away each direction.

Tim: That sounds normal. [chuckles]

Bob: I fly up each morning there and then I would fly home for supper. I did that for a quarter of a century. [laughs]

Tim: No way.

Bob: There was one day though that I walked into the office and there was a new girl there. I'd spent a lot of time up in Seattle but I just hadn’t swung by the office. I'd be in court or I'd be here or there. She stopped and she said, "Who are you here to see?" [laughs] I'm like, "Oh actually that's my name behind you. It's mine." I realized it had been a larger part of a year that I hadn't even been in my own office. I didn't even know the people who work for me.

I got everybody together in the biggest conference room we had and I quit. I said, "I'm out." [laughs] It was one of those stories, Cortez, when he discovered America, he'd said he burned the ships. I was Cortez and it was 1642 and I was like--

Tim: You weren't looking back.

Bob: No way. I took the key off my ring, I gave it to a guy who had been working for me for a decade. I said, "It's all yours. You don't owe me anything." [laughs]

Tim: Oh man.

Bob: Now, that's a stupid economic decision but it's an awesome new creation decision. My premise is this, we have got to burn down what's old to make way for what's new. If you're listening or watching this, I just want you to say and don't spend all this time reading the old clippings about who you used to be because God says you are a new creation.

I've spent 62 long years being old Bob, but this morning, five or six hours ago, I woke up new Bob. [laughs] Who’s he going to be, what’s he going to do? God loves justice. He just does.

Here's the tricky thing though. It's easy to raise a fist to the injustices we see around us, but Jesus turned that on its ear and He said, “I want you to love your enemies.” That's really a pickle for a guy who tries death penalty cases against witch doctors that sacrifices kids, and it makes for a pretty weird business card of mine but one of the things that I've been trying to do, that's what led us to taking these cases to trial against witch doctors who are doing wrong yet at the same time, starting a school, and teaching them how to read and write.

I just think there’s something beautiful. There is a ropes course in Northern Uganda that we took these witch doctors to and I bet it must be 50 or 100 feet up there, and they were all strapped in with their climber harnesses, no carabiners, and I got them all up to the top. When they got to the top, I unclipped them, I gave them a little push. [laughs]

Tim: Oh, my.

Bob: They said, “Stop pushing me.” I said, “Stop scaring people because this is how everybody feels around you.” I think we can speak truth to power. The difference is this, I know what their names are. Nobody else knows what their names are, they just know they're witch doctors but I've actually taken the time to learn the names of these guys that are trying to sort out some important things. They’re already the leaders in their community. We just need to give them a quarter of a twist and they needed to experience what it feels like to be frightened and to say like, “This is what you do to people every day. Is there a way to we could work on that together?” It starts from caring enough to know somebody's name.

I think we get a lot of people trying to do justice that don't know the names of the people they're trying to either advocate for or advocate against. I think that's one thing that we can bring. If faith is a big deal for you and you're listening, do this because this is what Jesus talks about. If faith isn't a big deal for you, if you're none of the above, do the same thing. Just take a genuine interest in people. For no other reason, there's nothing on the other side of the equal sign. No agenda because when love has an agenda, it ain't love anymore, it's just another program and we don't need more programs. You see it, how screwed up our programs are in the United States.

Tim: Sure.

Bob: We do not need more screwed up programs. What we need is more people that will put down all the earlier versions of them, or identify their biases, get real with those things, and to say, “I'm going to actually turn. I'm going to leave that in the past, I'm going to do in the right thing.”

Tim: Well, Bob, one of the things-- I think most profound things I've heard about what justice is, is it's taking somebody else's problem and making it your problem, I love the simplicity of that because like you said so often, there's obviously moments in time where things get to a point and, yes, anger and rage and frustration comes out.

Like you said, there's always an opportunity for us to not just see one side of the coin but to realize, even the smallest little things making just someone else's problem my problem can actually in a way make a profound impact in the sense that the way I see it is that there's so many great people out there doing incredible things, and so often we just hear one side of the tape and so one of my goals for this podcast is as well as to give voice to those injustices that we see around the world, to get aware and understand what they are, but also be aware of the incredible people that are out there doing something inspired that you actually don't have to complicate this. All you have to do is make somebody else's problem your problem, and do something about that.

You've been doing that and I've been so inspired seeing you do that, and I'm so grateful to have you on but in saying that, it has to be a lifestyle thing. It's not something you love, it’s something you actually do. It’s standing up for someone's problem, it's something you actually have to live out. It's not something you can just simply virtue signal about or write a post. It's something that it's got to be a part of your everyday life.

Bob: I think it'd be the difference between somebody that has a hobby farm, like one duck, one cow, one goose, and maybe a green tractor and a working ranch. I think that justice is a working ranch, it isn't a hobby farm. You don't just do a thing, but you just say, “I'm just going to identify with there and develop an empathy for somebody,” but then, it can't stop there because just thinking swell thoughts or saying, “I hope that turns out okay for you.” I'm not saying that your issue needs to be my issue, but I would say find something. Find something you're passionate about and to say I could get some skin in the game.

For each of us to say, “What's your next courageous step?” That next little step that you could make that make all the difference for somebody and God never compares what He creates. He just makes each of us different with different-- Sweet Maria, you know her that I've been married to for the 37 years I've been loving her and the 33 she's been loving me back. I've learned that we're just so vastly different and so too will be the way that all of us approach injustices, but approach them we must. We cannot just stand afar and thinking about a story from the Bible where it said that the disciples were watching from afar.

I don't want to be that guy. I want to be the guy that launches in, and are we going to blow it? Of course, we will because we're us. We're not going to have these incredible moments where there's these breakthroughs and breakthroughs, but it's not about the breakthrough, it isn't about the Instagram post, it's about you're actually connecting what you believe with what you do.

Tim: Yes, Bob. I remember when we first met was in Iraq, you'd come over to visit what we were up to, some fun we were having over there, really addressing one of the craziest moments at least in recent history with the invasion of ISIS into Iraq and we were just doing our best to help some refugees and families and kids that were without a school and we capered and did some fun stuff together.

I remember one of the things, Bob, that were all those incredible opportunities we got to partner, but one of the things I noticed about you which actually came up on a recent podcast you were hosting. You have a great podcast called Dream Big and your great friends that come on. A guy named Brad came on and, Brad Montague, he talked about becoming better grown-ups, and he talked about how grown-ups can be big in the eyes of kids. They can be boring and they can be busy.

It made me ironically think of you, Bob. You're big but one of the things I noticed is you made yourself small. We would load up into these SUV tracks, we’d have to remember to pull open that really heavy gate just to get out.

Bob: Yes. [laughs]

Tim: One of the things I noticed, if you weren't the first person out there opening the gate for everyone else, you were in the third row back of an SUV, the tallest guy amongst us, there you were scrunched up in the back and it comes second nature to you but for me, it spoke a lot. Here I am thinking how important it is to just honor you, Bob, and to make sure you're-- You wouldn't have a bar of it. You made yourself small even though in the eyes of so many people, not only are you this towering figure, but you’re important Bob, but you didn't--

It really spoke to me and it really showed me how even little things like that, the way we live out our lives, makes an incredible-- The fact that you're not too busy to jump on this podcast that is not even live yet, it's launching, you're going to be helping me launch this thing. You're not too busy for that. You're available. How many calls do you take a day?

Bob: Oh, it's so neat. I still get about 100 a day from the back of these books. It's awesome. We can't decide what country where we're born in, we don't get to pick our parents, but we can decide how available we'll be. That doesn't mean that everybody needs to be equally available. Again, keep your eye on your own paper.

Just say, "What is it that God has for me?" For me, I can answer the phone and say hello and be available for a moment or two and that's just great. You do what you can and if you have a chance to go in the back of the truck, I probably had a dozen candy bars back there, that was probably the subplot of what was drawing me back there. If I had chocolate all over me, but to take the chance to actually live into the symbol, beautiful, reverse economy that Jesus was always talking about.

I just mentioned Jesus, but if Jesus isn't your thing, just insert love here, but just say like-- He always said, "You want to be first, be last. You want to be the leader, follow." We go to a place like Iraq, as the guests that are just observing the courageous people, and to see you and your wife and the kids, and the courageous work that you're doing there, we just walked away completely inspired. You need to actually make the phone call, you actually have to do this.

Well, I'd read about what was going on in Afghanistan with the little girls and the Taliban. Now ISIS taking over I think 85% of the country, but I didn't know anybody from Afghanistan. I got on WhatsApp. Do you have that app on your phone?

Tim: Yes.

Bob: I got on WhatsApp and I met this guy, he said is from Afghanistan. I'm like, "Awesome. I'm looking for somebody from Afghanistan." We're corresponding back and forth or sending messages, but I don't know what team he's playing for. I know dummy [chuckles], so I actually go back to Washington DC, and ask the people who know. It's like, "Do you know who this guy is?" Here's the message I get. They said, "He's a good guy." I'm like, "Awesome." I asked if he'll meet and he says, "Yes." I flew to Kabul, Afghanistan to meet this guy. I'm telling you, it was a little nerve-wracking getting off a plane because it's just a really violent country right now as they're in transition.

We got a text message from and he said, "Bob, I can't meet you at the airport." I'm like, "No." He said, "What you need to do is leave the airport grounds and start walking through Kabul." I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Actually, I don't think I said kidding. He said, "After a while, he said you're going to come to a car, the last number of the license plate is seven, get in the car." Now we all have the decision to make. Are you going to get the next flight out or are you going to start walking? I just started walking, I'm thinking, "What could possibly go wrong?" I found the car, I got in.

Well, it turns out, this guy is right at the top of Afghanistan's leadership. What he wanted to know is if I would trust him enough to do what he told me to do, then he trust me enough to build the school. I think it's not that we're constantly being tested, but we're constantly being given opportunities to decide. I'm going to get back in the plane, I'm going to stay in the safety of where I am, or I'm going to take a walk. What do you guys call it? A walkabout.

Tim: A walkabout, yes. Let's go a walkabout.

Bob: I'm just going to do it. The beautiful thing about life is that it's so completely uncertain, and if you're looking for a certainty, you're going to find it, but after you live your life, [laughs] but this time right now is just mostly we're off the map and that's where justice will take you. It is not going to take you to where the map leads you, it'll take you to where God leads you, it'll take you to where love leads you. Sometimes those are uncertain places, but that's where all the good stuff happens, anyway.

Tim: It's where your core convictions, your deep-down core convictions will take you. One of the core convictions for you is availability. One of the core convictions, obviously, love and action for me, Bob, is it's this idea of belonging, of making sure everyone feels welcome. When they come into my house, when they come into my stratosphere, I want them to feel included, loved on the end. Probably because I don't know if you know about this about me, but I was born in Indonesia, my parents were actually missionaries in the jungle highlands of Irian Jaya, which is West Papua.

For the first few years of my life, I was literally the only little white baby. They actually put little brown onesies on me to be held up. I look back at all these photos. I don't remember so much of it myself, except for a few friends that I had. In fact, one little kid, Musa, his name was. I was the village free-range chicken that would just wander around and go crazy. I feel like in a sense, I've always been, not lost, but always getting lost.

The amount of times I got lost as a kid. My mom tells me, I jumped over our five-foot-high fence at three and a half years old, with my little plastic tricycle. I jumped over the fence. I walked a kilometer to the local shopping center before they found out where I was. I went to the butcher shop. Every time we went to the butcher shop, they'd give us-- It's this thing called Fred's. It's like luncheon, what do you call it there? Baloney? I think they call it that.

Bob: Yes. Okay.

Tim: I went to go get myself some Baloney at three and a half years old. I literally on this main road, on the back of the main road, I just walked with my little truck. I'm surprised nobody pulled over to find out, "What is this little kid doing?"

Bob: [laughs] That's awesome.

Tim: I was always trying to get lost searching for-- I wasn't trying to get lost. I was just always on this mission, but for me, I realized I've done four international moves with my family now in a little under five years, we've traveled a lot.

Bob: It's like you're being part of the witness protection program. You just keep changing countries, change your name. My name is Sally. [laughs]

Tim: Yes, it's like that, but this sense of we're all searching for home, we're all searching for a place where we belong. That has obviously driven me in where I'm going. Can you talk a bit about why it's so important to live in your convictions and let those be the guiding things that push you forward? You talked a bit about it in your book, and that was one of the parts that really stuck out to me as I was reading it.

Bob: I think we need to each decide what we want. Just as you're listening, to think, what do you want? You might say, "I want to be happy and Mazel Tov." Me, too. Just say it, let's just drill down on that, what would make you happy? Would a $1 million do it? $2 million? How about giving away four? Do you want a convertible Porsche? The problem with a convertible Porsche, it's going to end up in the shop and you're going to be in debt. [laughs] You'd say, "What's something that could make me feel happiness?" I think what we're going to do is you blow the foam off the top, you're going to find that it involves people

At some point, you're going to leave all the toys behind, all the cash, and you're going to arrive at people that we have longed for love and purpose and connection, and a couple of authentic relationships. What do you want? Then figure out, why do you want it? Some people want to be popular. I'm just saying to get real about what you want. Say like, "I want to be popular." That's awesome. Except you have to ask the question, how popular and to whom? The thing of like, "You want applause, join the circus." If you decide what I want to do is be purposeful, that would trump popularity. Actually, forgive me for saying the word trump. It would actually mean more than popularity.

What I want to do is to say, "What do I want? Why do I want it?" Then importantly, to your point, say, "What am I going to do about it?" For each of these, that it isn't just Brain Candy, you're just like, everybody's got an opinion, I want to be an example. We need more people that are doing what you're doing. You found the refugee community in Australia, you did this and you weren't doing it because you wanted a bunch of applause, you didn't do it because you want the cash because you don't get it.

You did it because you thought this would be really meaningful, that at the end of the day, to an audience of one, that I'll look back over my life and I'll say that I invested in others, that you didn't lose who you were in this, but you lost some of the things that didn't matter. Get the convertible. If that's going to blow your hair, go for it so that it's not throwing that stuff under the bus, it's just saying, "What would matter more than that?" Then we get to create these really safe places for people to have conversations. Your podcast will be one of them, where people can just come and just know that it's a really safe place to exchange ideas, and mostly outward-looking.

There be nothing less satisfying than making everything about me or you. To just say, "I want to take an interest in the people around me." That's probably why Jesus when he met a lawyer like me, said, "I got two things for you to do. Love God with your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself." Some of our neighbors are really hurting. They are people of color. They are people that have taken a financial hit. They're people that have been ostracized by society. They're people that love somebody that somebody says they can't love. They're people that are just hurting and just say like, "Would you chill out?" [chuckles]

Tim: 100%

Bob: We're not umpires calling balls and strikes. We're base coaches. We say, "How can I help you on your way?" That's what they did in the Benedictine tradition. The Benedictine order would have somebody called the porter. They would go to the gate every day, and their job was to say how can I help you on your way. I want to be a porter. I know you do too. I’ve seen you in action.

Tim: Can I translate that for my Australian audience. You call them base coaches and it's in baseball. It would be like-- We have what is called runners in an Australian rules football game, which actually, I remember I came and visited you after I played in San Diego, with a bunch of-

Bob: Yes, you were sore.

Tim: I think I raided your painkiller medicine box because I was busted up sore. I hadn't played in a long time. A few people got carted off in the ambulance and I was lucky I wasn't one of them. What we have on the field is we have these runners. They have water bottles in their hand, they run out. They're actually allowed on the field of play while the game is being played.

You're seeing these guys with bright yellow vests, with water in their hand, literally, giving water to players as they're going because it's like hockey except you really can't sub off that much, you're constantly going. Those people, and obviously, they're not just giving water, they're giving little tips and advice from the coach as, “Hey, tell this player, move forward, do this, go, start doing this.”

Bob: Nice. I didn’t know that. Okay.

Tim: How cool was that? In American football, you've got all these fancy helmets with things in your ear telling you what to do. We just have to go old school and just send blokes and girls out there with their bright-colored vest-

Bob: Be the runner.

Tim: Be the runner.

Bob: I think that's it. Yes, and the runner isn't telling everybody their opinion about everything. The runner is just meeting needs. The need in front of them, identify the need, meet the need. If that's not your need, that's fine, but go meet some other need. Don't spend all of your time meeting your own perceived needs because if you get so busy trying to be comfortable, I know some of my friends, they will have a church service or a gathering and they'll end with a big prayer and they’ll say, “I pray that everyone would go home safely and that they would--”

These are beautiful thoughts but I want people to live dangerous lives. I want people, including me, to be less comfortable. I want people to see what's really going on around them, and then have the guts and the grit to do something about it. I'm telling you, Tim, I'm not always there. Sometimes I’m just worn out. I'm just emotionally-- I got nothing left. With all the things that everyone is confronted from protests to viruses to whenever there's a lot of people that just feel whiplashed, they got nothing.

I just want you to know that that's okay, get real with that. Sit down. Get some rest. Don't let that become your position that love is never stationary. You might catch a rest. Get some rest. Then get back out into the game because I don't know how many quarters or how you time your games, but it goes for a period of time.

Tim: They are long games.

Bob: It's like you got the period of time to think-- The crazy thing about Goffs, all the Goff men seem from generation to generation, all seem to have passed away at about the same year. Isn't that crazy? I literally, we only get so many twists. I know this is creepy but I've got a clock that counts backwards from there.

Tim: Oh, gosh, please. I'm not surprised, Bob. I’m not surprised.

Bob: What it makes mindful is you got a little bit of time and what are you going to do with this? One of the things that I’ve really respected with you, Tim, is how you've run home to your family. That you've managed to navigate the demands of justice, but without forgetting the people that God's put under your roof, and that can be a difficult thing. Do they have Forrest Gump, that movie, down in Australia?

Tim: Yes, we can get it.

Bob: I love that. He goes and runs across America back and forth a couple of times. There's this iconic scene where Forrest comes running through the desert. He's been running for three years, two months 14 days and 16 hours. Don't ask me how I can remember that, I'm a lawyer. After three years two months 14 days and 16 hours, he stops and everybody thinks he's going to say something awesome. Then he says, “I'm going to go home now.” [laughs] That’s it. There's something beautiful.

I'm telling you if you were listening, run home. Do justice there. Get your house in order. Don't keep it there. Don't wait to have this thing perfect because you're never going to get it out the door. I would say run home there and start figuring that stuff out before you start figuring out stuff across an ocean.

Tim: You’ve made me think. I was going to ask you about how to overcome setbacks but you’re probably better off just picking up a copy of your book or going to one of your workshops when you've got them online, I think, as well now. You made me think of this idea. It's a question I have. I'm almost 40 and I've got four young children from nine years old to two years old. I'm learning and I have an incredible, incredible wife who is the hero in our family, you've met her. You know she holds me up and is certainly the rock as I know you would say the same with sweet Maria, your wife.

As I look at them, what would you say to someone who's my age? Bob, I've got this question for you. What do you say to me that's trying to balance? I've got dreams, I've got ambitions of what I want to be but I also want to lean in at night when I tuck my kids into sleep and I want to say, “What's your dream and how can I be a part of making your dream and prioritizing your dream and prioritizing what's important to you?”

I took a leaf out of your book. When you talk about giving your wife the resignation letter for your job and I wouldn't say she pulled that out and used it but I could read in my mind, “Hey, this ain't working for us and I'm going to make sure I make a drastic decision” and it really was a very difficult decision to actually move back to Australia here, having just moved back to America. That's how crazy my life has been.

What would you say to someone, what would you say to me, Bob, what would you say to all those people that are listening out there that are juggling so many things, young kids, young families, have these great ambitions and want to make sure they're not leaving their family and their wife behind in the process?

Bob: Oh man. Well, first of all, I can just empathize with you. If you're listening or you just feel this tug, like tension, you feel like you're sometimes like a marionette, and everybody has a string except you. One of the things I'll answer is with something, it just happened a couple of days ago. We have this camp that you know about and what I’m trying to do is plant a vineyard. I don't like wine, but I decided I was going to plant a vineyard. The first thing I needed to do is clear the brush.

I got in this big machine that clears the brush and we go back and forth clearing the brush. Do you know what is under the brush? The rattlesnakes. [laughs]

Tim: Oh, no.

Bob: I found a couple. That's what's going to happen. If you want to get clarity on your family and your purpose and all that, you got to clear the brush, you got to see what you've got. When you do that, you're going to actually find some things in there that might startle you. You're just going to have to say, “What am I going to do there?” You can ignore the rattlesnakes but they're going to ignore you.

Do that deep dive. I've gone to a place called the Onsite before and I've done a deep dive and just say, let's just talk about the rattlesnakes because by not talking, they did make go away. I would say, is you're finding your way back home to clear the brush, deal with the rattlesnakes that have been hidden. I was driving after clearing this patch of brush. I drove the excavator underneath an oak tree, the arm of the excavator hit a limb and a beehive with 10,000 bees land right on the top of the excavator. [laughs] I was a busy guy there for a second.

What I had is a door, and I shut the door. The bees are freaking out, they are losing their minds on the outside. Their one objective, sting me. Because I shut the door to some of that stuff, I say, I could leave that on the outside, and have a quiet place inside. You can fill in here whatever the bees in your life are, it can be in-laws, it can be your boss, it can be whatever all the distractions are, you got to shut the door, you got to find a quiet place to reflect and to say, “Who am I and what's my role in all of this?”

Then at some point, you got to do what I'm going to do next, which is plant the vineyards. Here's the crazy thing about a vineyard I'm learning. That a vineyard takes about 8 to 15 years before the grapes get good. I don't have that many wines. I am clearing the brush. I am dealing with rattlesnakes I'm closing the door on the bees. I am planting the vines and I'm not even going to eat the grapes. That’s what you have to do.

Tim: You’re leaving a legacy.

Bob: Yes. You just say, "This is not for me, I'm doing it because I'm here, I'm going to be a participant, I'm going to deal with my own ish first. Then I'm going to go get about the important work of growing people." You may not realize the impact that you have, we don't need to lick a bunch of return addresses stamps on it and say, this came from Tim, or this came from Bob or put your name on a stupid building that's going to burn down anyway. What I want us to do is to do the work that's going to get and it starts with us, but it does not end with us.

Tim: Well, as you've shown, you've got to take your family on that journey with you. The beautiful thing I've realized is that I don't want my dream and my passion to take me away. I've always wanted my family to be right there in the thick of it, experiencing it. You've done some fun cappers with your kids. In fact, you've given them permission to call the shots and take you where they want you to go whether it's eat an ice cream with presidents on the other side of the world, or whatever the case might be.

Like you said, you're leaving a legacy. You've got Richard, Lindsay, and Adam that are going to be carrying on in the incredible legacy that you're leaving. I think that's one thing I've really valued and seen in you as I've heard and got to know.

Bob: There's a great verse that underlies a lot of this. It's like eavesdropping on Jesus talking to his dad. He said, "I brought glory and honor to you here on Earth by finishing the work you gave me to do." If you're listening in, I would just say three words, finish your work. Whatever your work is, I don't decide what your work is. You decide. I would think about that. They say this in carpentry, measure it twice, cut it once. I would be really careful about what you decide to throw a lot of time and energy into. Once you've decided, finish your work, don't do this.

You're going to push against injustice and you know what injustice is going to do? It's going to push right back. You're going to have some setbacks, you're going to be horribly misunderstood. It's going to be people will misunderstood your message, they'll misunderstand your methods, they'll misunderstand your motives. They come up with something else, that's an M, they'll misunderstand that too, but do the work.

I think there's something beautiful about that. If we're not looking for applause from strangers, what we're doing is looking for people in need. I'm not going to measure my efficacy by whether somebody thinks that's well, or the validation I get from others. I'm going to do it because it's my work and I'm going to do it. That's The second thing... It can be lonesome, but it's like the difference you have-- It wasn't Andre I can see down in your place. He was really good at singles-

Tim: Tennis, right?

Bob: Yes. He was good at singles, not doubles. He's probably like, 70 now. I'm dating myself, but-

Tim: I remember Andre.

Bob: -that idea. We're playing singles, not doubles most of the time. It comes to just work. It's me and injustice. We're just going to hit that ball. Then hit it again and hit it again and hit it again. If you think it's the work is going to be complete. Even Jesus said, you're just going to always have the poor, but that doesn't mean you throw up your hands and say, well, then, whatever. It's like identify with that.

Tim: Looking back, I could point out a gazillion ways I really screwed up trying to help somebody and I really made a mess of things, but that does not mean don't keep trying. Don't keep swinging at the bat. Don't keep learning and moving forward. Is there anything that sticks out in terms of if someone feels like they've just really made a massive mistake? I know I've been there. I've done that. I've probably called you in that moment and said, "Hey, help me. How do I get out of this?" Is there something that comes to mind if there's someone out there that's thinking, look, I've just-- You don't know, Bob, I am really up to my eyeballs. I really don't know the way forward.

Bob: I would say that is the time where you might be in touch with your greatest need and your desperate need for the only kind of love that God could give. I'm not an infomercial for Jesus. I got no skin in your game on that, but I just think, man, you might see inner desperation actually, a tremendous need that you have to be mad and filled so that you'll have something. I teach at Pepperdine Law School which is one of our good law schools here, which is nuts because I'm just such a goofy guy but they've let me do it for a decade or two.

I also teach at San Quentin Prison. San Quentin is one of our more notorious prisons from decades and decades ago, and I have these amazing students that are in the class, but here's the deal, we flipped it. We said, "You be the teacher, I'll be the student." We went around in this moment, we were in a small circle with some of these guys, maybe 10 of them. We were talking about the average unserved term on their things 107 years each.

Tim: Average?

Bob: Yes, that's the average, including me. [laughs] I'm like, oh, dang. They've had some setbacks and certainly, the people that were victims of some of their wrongdoing had setbacks as well. We were talking about we'd gone through the prison yard, and there's guys bench pressing grand pianos, but they were just like huge muscles and all that. I was laughing. I was saying, "Man, if I had one of those bars on my chest, I wouldn't be able to move it. I'd be just like--" I said, "What's something you'd want to get off your chest so that you can actually move forward for what's next?"

Each guy went around and said, what they'd want to get off their chest. The guy sitting next to me was in here for a couple of life terms. He said, "I've been in here for the last 20 years, and I've been telling everybody that I got framed, and I didn't do it." He took a deep breath and he said, "I did it." I'm telling you there's something in that moment. He was the freest guy I've ever met. I would say if you're suffering the setback, if you're in the middle, and you say, "How could I ever be used?" There's all this shame and guilt surrounding this. You feel totally stuck.

Just get real with it. Find one safe person. You can call me, you can call Tim. Find somebody in your community that's super safe to be with. Get it off your chest. Then, now you've cleared the path to actually move forward with the important work, say, "That's who we used to be. Now, who are we becoming?" I'm telling you heaven is leaning over the rails that you just can't wait to see who you'll turn into. Same for me, same for you Tim, your beautiful family.

I think if we can live with that expectation for one another, that would be beautiful. Instead of thinking of the news clip of who they used to be, and I'm telling you, there's some difficult people, we've got one running the place over here. [laughs] You guys have been listening to this hairdo for four years. I'm not a political guy, but I'm just like, holy moly, it's so embarrassing. We will hopefully right the ship soon. One of the things that will happen is you'll just be misunderstood because you'll be identified with somebody else. They'll think well, if you're with him, then I must be against you.

I guess I just want to check that at the door. What if we just say people are people. People aren't projects. God makes a people. People make issues. People aren't issues. People are people. I just need to remind myself whether there's something that you see on television, you object to the most. They say God is up to something different in their life. Heaven knows what that is. Then he's up to in my life.

Take a wedding of this coming week in Australia. You got a farmer that was in the drought praying for rain. You've got a wedding planner, praying for sunshine. If it rains, it doesn't mean that God doesn't like the bride. It just means he sees the plight of the farmer. Just seeing that God is doing something different in the bride's life than he's doing in the farmer's life. I just want to know that people that I don't understand, I don't want to vilify, but I will call wrong stuff wrong stuff. To say, "Oh, heck no. Try [unintelligible 00:48:59]." We're so not doing that. Raise your fist with resolve, not just millitants, but with resolve to say, "Oh, heck no, I'm going to get in. I'm not waiting for permission anymore. I am here. That's all the permission I need."

Tim: Wow, Bob, as we wind things up, I just remembered it wasn't only a couple months ago I'd come back from the States. We just moved just before the lockdown happened a month or so before everything locked down, we moved back to Australia with my family. I was going through a really, really low time. I was starting to get really depressed. I'd left a job actually. I really enjoyed so many aspects of it. I was traveling around the world, I was over in the Middle East and North Africa. I got to constantly be on planes and meeting with incredible people and helping encourage great things around the world.

Of course, a lot of that's now, I wouldn't be doing that anyway, but I remember just coming back, starting to feel really sorry for, and honestly just getting into a really low funk. I remember one morning I just went as I would often do, I'd either go for a surf or just go for a walk down the beach if I could. I remember just starting to walk out, peering out into the ocean just sitting there. For the first time, the thought dropped in my mind, I don't know where it came from, but as I just started to walk out into the ocean and look into the uncertainty of what felt like my life, I have no idea what really is going next.

A lot of it's just perspective. There were some incredible things, I have wonderful family. I'm so fortunate and blessed. I'm living the dream in many ways, but I was stuck. I just remembered this thought that came to mind that says, "You are right, where I want you to be." That freedom to acknowledge, hang on, this is where I'm at, and I may not know tomorrow, but right here, right now, living in that present getting, I've got the opportunity now to get started and use what I have, and I think a lot of people, me included, we get stuck thinking about, we've got our big ambitions but we don't realize that it starts here with what we've got in our hand. We can get this thing going and this is right where you're supposed to be.

Bob: I agree. It's nice. Sometimes you can start thinking in binary terms like zeros and ones, it's all this or it's all of that, but we could have our eyes on the horizon, as we're moving there, and know where our feet are, just be where your feet are. Just look down. If you're listening, find your feet, that's where you are. Eyes on the horizon, know where your feet are, and then what we're talking about is all the injustices between where your feet are and the horizon, and then just find a way. I've sailed to Hawaii a couple of times, haven't quite made it to Australia, but what we would do is 2,750 miles each way.

Tim: Well, there's no planes, but you could sail to Australia. I don't think there's anyone stopping you.

Bob: I could. Take a hot minute, but what we would do is we would fix these waypoints, we would plug them in, and we would steer for the next waypoint. It's like an imaginary X floating in the water, and we would just chunk it up. You can sail about 300 miles a day if you're clipping right along. We would just chunk it up 300 miles a day and plug in these waypoints. What if you do the same thing with your ambitions? Did you say, "This is the next waypoint? This is about a day's work from now, I'm not going to make a list. I'm going to make a call. I'm not going to think about it. I'm going to take action on it."

When you start doing that, get to the next X and say, "Where do you go?" The next X, there's series of waypoints, 2,750 miles sounds like a long way, and it is, but 300 miles sounds doable, and it is.

Tim: Look, we could talk for hours, Bob. I'm just so thankful that I get the chance just to have a catch out with you again. I'd love to hear, I know you've got some stuff, you were just out of a camp. Could you tell folks what's on the horizon? What are you dreaming up next? what's happening in the world of Bob Goff?

Bob: Oh boy, so many mischievous things. It's just the right kind of mischief. This camp has taken a great deal of time. We're just having horses abroad, and we're going to be doing equine therapy with people that have been through some very difficult things. We have seven horses arriving. Here's the crazy part. I've never been on a horse before. I don't even know where you need to put the straw in. [crosstalk] figure it out.

Tim: That just doesn't make sense.

[laughter]

You cease to surprise.

Bob: I'm just thinking about things that would be meaningful for the family, meaningful for me with a number of wines that I have left and just being really strategic about it, about my head down, writing the next book. The way to get out of being concerned about how people think about your current book is to get your head in the next one. I would say the same thing would be applicable to our circumstances, getting your head in the next thing and out of this, of worried about what everybody else is thinking, man. Fill that void.

If you are susceptible to that, fill it, do meaningful work, and start by doing work on yourself. Take a deep dive and say, "Who am I? What do I want? Why do I want it? Decide what you're going to do about it.

Tim: I can't wait to get out to that camp of yours in San Diego. I almost was able to sneak in a sneaky visit before we flew back to Australia. I wish somehow that could have worked out, but I've got my ticket booked. The minute they let us fly out of Australia. I'll be on the way out.

Bob: Come and see my vineyard.

Tim: I cannot wait. I'm so thankful. I'm going to ask you a couple of quickfire questions that shouldn't take very long at all, but this is going to be special bonus content for those of you that subscribe, become a patron of the podcast. If you want to learn some of these quickfire questions that I'm going to run by, which I'm going to run by all my guests actually, to get a little extra info out on who you are and some of the curious things you're up to. We're going to do that but, Bob, before we go to that, thank you, so much. So, so much for-

Bob: Thanks a million. So good being right there.

Tim: -just spending some time with me this morning. Wow, it's been loads of fun.

Bob: Okay, and if you guys have been listening, now it's time to start doing.

Tim: Totally. This podcast is proof positive. Two years ago, I was like, "I'm going to do this." I finally got round to quit making excuses. I'm like, "I'm going to do this. I don't care if we have to Jerry rig this setup." I've got some great mates around me, helped me to do this, and I'm just so pumped to have you on and for you to be helping to launch my paper airplane out there. Thanks, Bob.

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Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Justice Matters. If you had as much fun listening to my conversation with Bob Goff as I did, and you want to hear the rest of our chat, then head over to www.justicematters.tv. There, you can get a link to the Patreon page, where for as little as $5 a month, you can get access to all bonus content, conversations, questions that I asked my guests that aren't available to the public. At this point, I'd like to thank a special couple of patrons who're the first two overseas patrons, I've got Marco Rychilik from Switzerland and Phil Hyldgaard from Denmark. Thanks, guys, for supporting the show.

Special thanks also goes to Joseph, the auto, and the audiovisual engineer. I'd like to also thank the music duo, David Gungor, and John Arndt, also known as The Brilliance for providing the music for this podcast. If you're enjoying yourself, why don't you consider sending me a review or rating the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Google wherever you listen in. If you're watching online on YouTube, hit the subscribe button. You can also hit the bell, get notifications so that whenever the next episode is uploaded, you will find out.

Join me again soon for another episode and I am your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.

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