Dr Ruth Knight works with QUT’s Australian Centre for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Studies. She researches the beliefs and behaviours that influence organisational culture and improve individual, team and organisational performance. 

Inspired by decades of experience working in health, homelessness and community development for which she was awarded a Centenary Medal in recognition of her career dedicated to social change, her work now focuses on social innovation and social enterprise, nonprofit leadership and impact measurement. Ruth is renowned for being a facilitator that uses fun experiential learning to inspire people to create great places to live and work.

In this episode we step back in time when she was a young 18 year old, who barely graduated high school, but had a dream to travel to India and serve at Mother Teresa’s House of the Missionaries of Charity in Kolkata.

We then explore her work as a clinical nurse who worked in both community work and social youth work for 25 years, before moving into training and consultancy work on the heels of her doctoral research in the philanthropic area.

I thoroughly enjoyed unpacking her new found passion for Social Enterprise and Social Innovation within the nonprofit industry. As a result, Ruth is now in the final stages of launching an undergraduate degree on Social Enterprise through QUT’s Business School, just one of the many plates she has spinning in her inspiring life.

To learn more about her work with QUT, visit The Australian Centre for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Studies. You can also participate in her regular live online conversations about all things social enterprise and nonprofit at her Tea and Buns link & check out her YouTube channel for access to some of her engaging resources, lectures and interviews.

You can reach out to her by email at ruth.knight@qut.edu.au or follow her on Twitter & LinkedIn.

Subscribe (https://justicematters.buzzsprout.com). Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/justicematters)

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yes. Now I, I get it. Like I understand now that you have to have a business mindset and, like, I had to have gone and done that coaching course because I wouldn't have got it if I hadn't have done that. But I had to still have this desire and passion for the social issues that we need to address as a community, not the nonprofit sector versus the for- profit sector.

 

Tim Buxton 

You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs. Ruth Knight is a PhD researcher and lecturer at QUT's Australian Centre for Philanthropy, and Nonprofit Studies, of which I am a very proud student. Ruth is passionate about social enterprise, and we spend a lot of time unpacking what that is, in this episode. She has dedicated her life to justice work to empowering the underserved and the hurting in society. She has a huge heart. And she has an incredible, incredible story. Guys, I would not be surprised if at the end of this podcast, you end up heading back to university to study social enterprise or nonprofit studies as a result of listening to her speak, just like I did, when I decided to go back to UNI. Guys, here is my interview with Ruth Knight.

 

Tim Buxton 

Dr. Ruth Knight, it is a good to have you on the show.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Thank you for having me. 

 

Tim Buxton 

Is it? Is it weird to be called a doctor still?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yeah, it is actually. Like, it really is. It's taking me a long time to get used to the idea that wow, yeah, I'm a doctor. But as my kids say, I'm not a real doctor.

 

Tim Buxton 

No, you're well deserved of the title. I mean, goodness me. That's a phenomenal achievement. Did you ever think you would be a doctor?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Never in a blue moon. Really. I was terrible at school. In fact, I failed year 12 I was anyone who knew me at school would say there's no way you know, she would ever even go back to university, let alone come out with a doctorate. So it really is very surprising that that I, I suppose that I built to the moment where I was, I was so intrigued with the nonprofit sector, and what I could do to make a difference. And that led me to completing a PhD. And I'm telling you, it wasn't all happy days, there was a lot of tears and tantrums and a lot of stress involved in that. But yeah, I'm really I am proud, very proud of myself, but also very honored that I now am able to not only work at a university and share what I've learned with many other people, that I get to talk about research and the importance of good research, especially around nonprofit and Community and Social Impact issues.

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. Well, I have the privilege of calling you my lecturer because you roped me into to joining the ICP ms, which is the Australian Centre for

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Philanthropy and nonprofit studies.

 

Tim Buxton 

Thank you so much. I almost forgot. But and and your researcher as well, your neck high in getting ready to launch a new course. Can you tell us about this course?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Well, one of the great things that we have been doing for a number of years is having courses around social enterprise. So social enterprise, as you know, is is a new form of business. And I won't say new form, but it's it's a it's a form of business that looks at both economic and social outcomes. So it's a form of business where it's a commercially run. So it's there's an economic viability about the business. But the purpose of the business is to create social impact. Now it has been around a while. But I think in this day and age, it's really building momentum. Yeah, the whole sector, the whole, the idea that wow, actual fact business can create social impact. People are very, very excited about it. So for many years, we have been running that course and teaching people about social enterprise in our postgraduate courses. But the very first time in 2021, we're going to be offering that course to undergrad students so that students from anywhere from any university can come and do this course. And they'll learn about social enterprise. Wow, you develop a business plan that not only looks at your economic impact looks at your social impacts as well.

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, well, I just remember that the one subject that you told me, which was social enterprise, the amount that just blew my mind when I thought, hey, there's so many opportunities, it's the future of for profit businesses, as well as this hybrid model that kind of, I think there's just so much, so much to learn about, it blew my mind and your phenomenal teacher, I think it's because there is such this heart of care and compassion, I remember, you got me into this course, I had my first assignment do it was an annotated bibliography and never heard of it before. And I was petrified because I had, I just didn't even know how to use this referencing tool, all the references we needed to do. And you just, you took my phone call, and he said, All right, here's what we're gonna do. Let's do a lot. And this was in the middle of COVID. We really couldn't even see each other at that point. And I'm gonna jump on zoom. I know a couple other students. Let's do this. And you helped me Yeah, get that first assignment done. And now I'm halfway through and I'm just absolutely loving it. And so thankful. But you've got this compassion about you. This heart to help and to serve. Business, though, hasn't always been your main focus like it is. Now. We'll talk a bit about the social enterprise.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

You're going to make me start crying already. I told ya..

 

Tim Buxton 

But uh, he, you know, when you, you're a nurse, is that right? Is that yes, your background? I'd love to get into the where it all began for you and your heart to really help and serve and..

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

yeah, my career has been quite a journey. Yeah. As I told you at school, I wasn't I was an academic in any shape or form. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't really into studying. But I knew that I wanted to do something of the helping profession didn't really know what that was. But I failed you. 12. So I wanted to be a teacher. Funnily enough, that was my one one and only goal. I wanted to be a drama teacher. But because I failed you 12 so terribly, I didn't accept me into uni. So I thought, Oh, okay. Well, what do I do now? Well, yes, maybe now. But at the time, it was probably not the right moment for me to really go to university, so that but it also obviously made me feel a bit of a failure, you know, like, wow, you know, I can't go and study what I really want to do. So I was really quite lost. I didn't have a plan B, I just all my friends were going off to university, or they were getting work. And I didn't really know what I wanted to do, or where was my next step. And what happened was that I read a magazine like new idea, like, you know, it was just, you know, just off the shelf kind of magazine. And I just read this amazing, incredible article about Mother Teresa, and her charity, the Missionaries of Charity. And I don't know what happened that I just said, I want to go there. I want to go to Calcutta or I want to go and see this organization called wearers of charity. And so I did, I packed my bag. So I was 18. This is a few years ago, so there was no internet, there was no you know, my poor Mom, I'm thinking back now going my poor mom. I just literally packed my bags and said, See you later. And I went off to India, and I arrived in Calcutta did not know anyone anything. I was Yeah. 18. And I got lost on the very first day that I arrived in Calcutta. It was the most scariest moment of your life. Because Yeah Calcutta is a really big story.  

 

Tim Buxton 

What happened?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Well do you want to hear it?

 

Tim Buxton 

I do. Getting lost in India the first day you are there..

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

In Calcutta. Calcutta is a population of millions. Yeah. And beautiful Indian people. I love the Indian people, but they're very different to a little white 18 year olds. Okay, here I was sure that everybody looks at you. You know, you walk down the streets like this because it's so populated and to me it was a massive city and I've never been there before and just everything looked the same. And it's you have to watch where you walk because there's not really any roads and streets, you know, because it's just the sun. The sights and the smells and the sounds of India is just overwhelming. overwhelming.

 

Tim Buxton 

It's like assault on your sense. It's

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

It is an assault, Yeah. And so I got lost, I didn't know. And I didn't see another European or anyone I could, like ask anyone off, you know, for hours and eight hours, eight hours, I wandered around the streets of Calcutta. And all started when the sun was starting to go down, I started get a little bit scared because I really didn't know where I was or how to get back to where I was staying or, and this is the story that I after eight hours, and it was probably about, you know, five o'clock in the afternoon. It occurred to me that I probably should kind of pray. Cuz that was the only thing left to do. You know, I'd asked a lot of people directions, but I didn't understand what they said.

 

Tim Buxton 

My mom always told me, the first thing you should do is pray. 

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

But it was the very last resort, and I went... The only last thing I have to do is to pray right. So here I am. And I I just I just went God, please help, you know, one of those really short, like desperate prayers. And I looked up and I thought, oh my goodness, I'm standing outside a church. And here it was standing outside this massive must have been an angle cut or something. You know, really, they have some very big all churches there. And I thought, this is a church. And so it's gated. And so I was peering through the gate and hollering out, you know? Anybody here and this lovely little Indian gatekeeper like they had a little gate keeper there. And he came out and I all I could think of to say was Mother Teresa, Mother Teresa. Think I can think of saying and he said, Come. He literally came out the gate of the church pretty much took my hand. And I am not kidding you. We were literally about three blocks down. Mother Teresa's mother house, which is where I was trying to head eight hours earlier. Oh,

 

Tim Buxton 

My goodness.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

And he just said here. And he he just took me right to the door. And I was at this point, like, you know, the relief, kind of Wow, like I was yet partly in shock, partly relieved and I knocked on the door. And a beautiful non opened inset welcome welcome. Took me in and I sat down inside the mother house, just again, overwhelmed of what this had just occurred. And this beautiful American lady came up to me, she said, Hello, where are you from? And I said, I just arrived my daughter where I have not told her the story, you know? And she said, I'll take you back to where you're staying. Yeah. And from then on. I stayed there six months. Yeah, working with the Missionaries of Charity. But I think Calcutta in in Delhi, and I worked with a beautiful English missionary in the northern part of India as well. And I just had the most incredible six months that changed my life changed my life completely. And I credit that to where I am today and what I'm doing today, because I went back, yeah, convinced that I was going to become a nurse. And I was gonna go and work back in somewhere like India, wanted to go and do development work. And I felt very strongly, you know, that I that that was my calling then. So I headed back to England. This is where I lived at the time. Yeah. And where I grew up. So I went back to England, and applied to go to nurse nursing collection, which is what I did and became a clinical nurse. Then I went on to do Tropical Medicine. So I studied extra year doing Tropical Medicine, in the preparation of going somewhere to a developing country and doing something Afghanistan was actually one of the countries I wanted to go to now this is a long time ago never even heard at the place before back then really. But I knew that while I, I knew that they were doing operations on the eyes like Fred hollows, that I really got very interested in the concept of maybe going out to field hospitals and doing operations in a country called Afghanistan, which I've never heard of. And anyway, that didn't i didn't end up doing that. But nevertheless, the training of being a nurse and learning about health and community health was really then what took me then into the community and I started working in England in community health.

 

Tim Buxton 

So, year 12 failure. Yes. You know, you've studied nursing after this incredible inspiring. I could just imagine those eight hours you're sitting there thinking yeah, what am I doing here and then finally when you agree to by the nurse The American nurse yes is up here. This is Yeah, I could imagine this thought, well, this is rattler. Um, so yes to be Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. A lot of emotions. Yeah. That would go through. But he you are now completed What? How many nursing qualifications and your doctorate? Yeah. That's remarkable. And I think it goes to show that, you know, it doesn't take all the the qualifications to start, it actually takes the heart and willingness to just go get on a plane. Say, Ma'am, I'm going to India. And you never know what doors and what path may take? Absolutely. I wanted let dig in a bit more about your your healthcare industry, and maybe how that switch from health care to, to more of an economic kind of focus that you've you bring now. What was it that you that really, you saw was some of the greatest needs in in helping in the developing world with an even with your youth work as well in England is where you can tie a lot of that into what was some of the issues that you you're faced there. I'd love to kind of get your perspective on that.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

So what happened is that I did my nurse training, I again thought, Well, I'm going to be a nurse now. That's, you know, I wasn't that I switched a little bit from going overseas, largely because I met my future husband, and he wasn't as keen as me. But but I I focus then on England and working with young people in England now I had actually grown up in a foster care home, my mom and dad were foster carers. And so I already had a great understanding of the issues surrounding child protection, foster care, you know, those kind of issues. And so there was already in me the sense of social justice and working with those who were underprivileged, and you know, abused. So what happened was that when I, again, was thinking, Well, what am I going to do now? If I'm staying in England? What does that look like for me? And I saw this job advertised, which was running a community center for young people who homeless young people. Wow. And I thought, Well, that sounds really interesting and challenging. Remember, I was only 25 2024. At this point. Wow. And I didn't think that I would get the job. But I did. Wow. With no experience of running community organizations. I just trained as a clinical nurse in a hospital. So I, you know, I hadn't done really any community health up until that point. But I was given this opportunity, this opportunity was given to me, and I just loved it. I just loved it. Because what it meant was that every day I was working with young people who were homeless, but because of that, I got to understand the deep issues and complexities that surround homeless young people. So you know, in those next four years, while I was doing that, I got the real education, everything. Yeah. I worry, it was a deep dive into why homelessness occurs and where systematic and systemic issues about child abuse, child protection, homelessness, drug abuse, trafficking, domestic violence, you know, all of those things that come along with homelessness and as an a reader, the reason why it happens or the consequences of homelessness. So this massive, deep dive into more how do we solve homelessness? And what are the underlying issues that we need to think about and address before you because it's not just about giving people a home, it is not just about his house, you know, he go now now we've solved it. This, you know, so many issues that we need to address before we give homeless people a house.

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, I mean, homelessness is the symptom, right? And it's like you can treat the symptom but you're not dealing with the root cause of what yeah, let's take homelessness, for example. At least what you learn in that that Yeah, time where you're serving as the leader for this community. Community homelessness program. Yeah. What, what did you discover? What were those, those root causes, and then I don't think they would change so much today.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

So this is where I have to be really Careful, don't get too emotional. Because the biggest thing I learned is that we're all hurting.

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

We all hurt for certain reasons. And we all try and cope with our hurt in different ways. And a lot of people treat it with drug abuse, alcohol, relationships, domestic violence, you know, all of those are ways or reasons to try and cope with our lives. And, you know, the hurt that's in our lives. And young people who don't have a really stable home or a stable relationship with their parents, you know, they miss out on a lot of the education and the support that even even kids who do have great parents and do have stable homes, even some of those young people, you know, if they have high anxiety, or if there is disability, or if there's, you know, all sorts of things going on, you just can't you just can't say a homeless young person is this problem in that category? You can't. So what I've learned, so I'll get back to your question, what I've learned is that we're all hurting in some shape, or form. And it is, it is the system that we need to address about how we prevent that hurt becoming destructive. And putting in place really early on, which is why I went on to work with young mothers, because I went I started to go back back back going, how early Do we need to work with people to ensure that we put protective factors around them? And I'm not saying that we need to just get rid of hurt? Okay, you know, bad things happen? Yeah. You know, that's, that's just life, you know, and we all have a full, you know, a little bit of anxiety, and we all have things that happen in our life. So I'm not saying, Get rid of that. But how do we get protective factors around young people in particular, and families, so that they are able to be resilient, so they were able to, you know, overcome some of those challenges and hurdles in life, and hopefully not end up homeless or mentally ill, or suicidal, or what all those, as you say, consequences are because of not being able to cope with their hurt, and their need for love and love and security.

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. I love that. That emphasis emphasis on relationship is the source quite often of just healing when you a program won't always fix someone, but a compassionate person in your life that will actually care for you walk alongside you listen to you. And understand maybe why you're reacting or responding in this way. Thank you. Yeah.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

And you know, what, I still get notes and emails and texts from young people that I've worked with years ago. And it is never about what I did. It's always about how I responded to them, and the relationship that I had with them. And the fact that I just encouraged them, affirmed them, you know, showed some empathy. And, you know, when I, and I mean that, that deeply touches me when I get any kind of feedback, even from students actually even Yeah, that feedback, even if it's just a little text that says, Thank you. I know, it's never because of what I taught them or the book that I told them to read or the mark that I gave them. That's nothing to do with it. It's really about how encouraged they felt and how supported they felt. And maybe a couple of words, most words that I might have said in the right moment, right time. And so yeah, so that's what I think that's what I hope to do. I hope to always just say the right thing at the right time that gives somebody got, you know, the ability to say, Yeah, I can do this. Yeah. Or Yeah, I'm okay. Or, you know, what somebody is thinking of me?

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. It's marrying that it's marrying justice and the need to address an issue with compassion, right? Like I've experienced your encouragement along the way, your belief in me that you're going to make it you're going to get that assignment and don't worry, but whatever it may be. Yeah, I think we over compliment overcomplicate what. And I think that's really helpful for anybody listening is we are We can over complicate the difference that just the simplicity of Yeah, being kind to somebody, especially who might even be acting out might might be expressing their hurt in an in an anger way. But when we respond with empathy, kindness.

 

Tim Buxton 

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Dr Ruth Knight 

There was a really moment in my life where I had to challenge that myself. And that was when I wanted to form my own organization. So I'd been working in the sector but I felt that there was a massive gap now this is in the Gold Coast. Now I was working in homelessness in the Gold Coast and realize that there was this massive gap for teenage young mums, we I was running a homelessness service, but was having to turn away young mothers who were pregnant. And you know, this is teenagers who were pregnant or parenting and I, I was struggling with this for for ages for a long time and going. Why is there not someone out there? That's offering hope to young mums, these girls who get themselves pregnant, they're pregnant, whether you know what else happened, but there's no one who will take them in no one who can offer them a safe bed for the night? Nothing. And so that led me to think I'm just gonna have to do it myself and

 

Tim Buxton 

Get the spare bedroom out. Yeah, or make a spare bedroom.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

I wanted to set up an organization. Oh, yeah, I wanted to set up an organization. And not just me, there was a few of us that I encouraged and said, this is where the gap is in, you know, the need in our community. And if we're going to do something, I really believe it's it's really addressing homelessness right at the beginning, because we don't want to perpetuate that cycle. Yes, young moms that are homeless, you know that they're having a child while they're homeless. It's just horrific. So anyway, we went through the arduous task of trying to set up a charity. And as you know, it's not easy. And I'd never actually set up a charity myself, I'd always worked for existing, you know, organizations. So I went down this journey of learning how to set up an organization and I remember distinctly a conversation that I had when I rang, I think it was the CTO and rang up and said, Can you give me some information or I can't remember what I was asking. But something along the lines of now, you know, I'm setting up this charity and just checking in the right forms and everything. And I she said to me, Mrs. Knight, we don't need any more do gooders. Those words, those exact words, right? Wow. And I was floored. I was like, What? Did someone just actually say to me? Well, number one, she was that that wasn't a nice term. I don't think she was using it in a nice term. She was kind of accusing me of being a do gooder. Wow. And I was setting up a charity for young mothers like, how, how is that possible that someone would feed that neck that like it's too hard? Don't just, you just do good or don't do it? Well, that didn't stop me.

 

Tim Buxton 

Was fuel in your rocketship

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Fire in my belly. I just thought, my goodness, I'm definitely going to be a do gooder. Like, I just turn that around and say, I'm gonna work this out. And I'm going to work out how to do this. Yeah. And we did set up a charity for and we you know, we did some amazing things as part of that organization. But I I suppose telling that story is because I've since realized that it is it is people who are do gooders, yeah, that are passionate about you know, justice and and social justice and how we can really make a difference in our community and if you see a gap or a need, figure out how to do something Don't wait till someone else's. Now if there is someone else doing it like join forces collaborate, go and volunteer, go on their board, whatever you can do to support if someone's already doing it. But if there's a gap, or if there's someone not doing it, we need to talk about it, we need to say, this is an injustice here is something we need to address. And it takes people to be, you know, stand up and say, Well, this is gonna be hard work. Yes, let's do it.

 

Tim Buxton 

I, I thank you for the passion that you bring in the inspiration you're inspiring other students to, to see all the different avenues that they can do that there isn't just one cookie cutter way of making a difference. Like you said, you can join other people, you could start your own, you could start a for profit business that actually That's right. Can can address not only the immediate need, but can Yeah, can build an impact others whether it be through employment, and and purpose. So how did how did then, to kind of fast forward-

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

That's a good segue

 

Tim Buxton 

-to that kind of the many ways in which people can make a difference without feeling you just have to be a Mother Teresa, let's say there are so many avenues and ways to do that. And a lot. Where did this switch happen? Yeah. Do though. Like how did you then kind of pivot and turn? Yeah, yeah, the social enterprise, right?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yes. So here, I was working in the nonprofit sector. Very compelled by the issues that the nonprofit sector addresses. But I really was frustrated, frustrated, that nothing seemed to be changing. And also that I was finding it hard to make a living that, you know, I was a consulting at this point. And I was trying to work with charities, but nobody has any money. And I certainly never even wanted to charge them. Because I felt terrible about you know, even charging people for my advice, or my consultancy. So I was thinking, I've got to do this. And I was trying to think about strategically, how could I do this a different way? And I thought, well, businesses have got money. And what I know is, is this helpful to a business, you know, as a nonprofit, in some respects, so I thought, I'll go off and train as a business coach, because if I learn how to coach businesses, I can charge them. And then I can, you know, yeah, do all the things that I want to do with the nonprofit sector, cheap or for free, right. So this was my big plan. So I was running a business myself like, so I thought, well, I should, you know, I wasn't going to be helpful. So I went off and did a business course, on top of the PhD that I was already doing, Oh, my goodness. But I've really felt that this was important to me. 

 

Tim Buxton 

You don't know how to do things in halves do you... it's like all or nothing.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

But I but again, it was the most incredible opportunity for me to see how businesses operated and their mindset. And for me to learn how to run a business and go hang on. Businesses is all about making money. And it's all about how many widgets can you sell? And, you know, all this very, very focused on the money and the customer. And you know, but I learned a heap of good stuff from that. But I couldn't pull myself away from the fact that, but hang on, how is that? reducing homelessness? How is it reducing unemployment? How is it How is it addressing some of the issues that are deep in my heart that I can't, I can't just pull it out, I can't just say, I'm gonna forget that now. You know. And so, so this is where this kind of like journey for me started. And I started to go, well hang on, is there an opportunity for businesses to actually address social issues, and I started to learn about social enterprise. And I started to look at this model. And I started to just do a whole lot of research about it. And then it wasn't until a cpns so the Australian Centre for philanthropy and nonprofit studies actually said to me, Ruth, we actually want you to come now and be part of our teaching team. Why teach others about this? And at that moment in time, I couldn't have been more better suited to then going, yes. Now I get it. Like I understand now that you have to have a business mindset and I had to have gone and done that coaching course because I wouldn't have got it if I hadn't done that. But I had to still have this desire and passion For the social issues that we need to address as a community, not the nonprofit sector, yeah, versus the profit sector for profit sector. So yeah, so this is how it's happened. And and of course, I've done my, my Master's in, in governance. And you know, so I learned a lot already about running and managing nonprofit organizations. But this is where then I started to really pivot towards the the social enterprise started to get really excited. And when you get students who are from the nonprofit sector, though, why have I got to do this little unit on social enterprise? I'm not a business person, I don't want to do that. And I go, just wait. And I see them at the end of the unit.

 

Tim Buxton 

Oh yeah, It's the favorite.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

I get that all the time, and then say, wow, this is the unit of all of those other accounting,

 

Tim Buxton 

I was going to say, when you are competing against like Board Governance versus social enterprise and making a business plan for a Social Enterprise

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yeah. Yeah. You know, they come out and say, Yeah, wow, this is possible. And it is what we really need the future to look like. Because it's hard work fundraising. And I'm not saying it's bad. It's great. But it's hard work. And, you know, so to blend that idea of 

 

Tim Buxton 

I love that idea of blending, I like the idea of taking the best of nonprofit. Right and merging it with the best of for profit. I think of I know so many businessmen who, just so successful businessman. And yet I hear them say to me all the time I've spent most of my life and career in in nonprofit, charity work. They're envious of me. And they're like, I just wish I could I just, I just want to give up doing business. And I just want to help and serve the poor and without saying, you know, quite often I've said in the past, I've said no, you just do what you do. Yeah. And give some of your money to nonprofit. Yeah, as if that's the answer. Yeah. But it's not the answer. What if you were to pivot, and turn and transform what you do? Where it's not just about Hey, is the stock price rising? Is it just profitability? unfettered capitalism, whatever you want to call? Yeah. Which is the end goal quite often, yes. You know, of business. What if we were measuring? How are we doing when it comes to our impact on the environment? How are we doing when it comes to, you know, how we're impacting the social good of human beings? Is this healthy for them? Their minds? their, their, their bodies? 

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yes, who are we employing? You know, employment is such an incredibly important thing for people who are homeless or mentally ill, or disability. Now, you don't have to have your whole workforce with a disability. But even if you had a percentage of your workforce, that you knew couldn't go and easily get a job in another situation, you'd be changing those lives in those families, instantly, by giving them a job instantly. You'd be giving a homeless person the respect and dignity they needed to go home to go home because they know they have the money now. Right now

 

Tim Buxton 

Independents. Now they're not in a state of dependency,a paternalistic kind of

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Absolutely. Give them put them in a course so that they learn about resilience and mental health at the same time, just give them a little bit of PD alongside their job. Now that person is learning about resilience and mental health and how to turn up for work with these it you know, like, you can change your life so easily through business. But you can obviously do much better things like that you can look at human slavery in your supply chain, I was just talking to a company the other day trying to sell me something. And I actually said to them, so what's your human slavery principles? You know, tell me, have you looked at your supply chain to make sure there's no trafficking or human slavery? And they? He said, Oh, no, I never thought about that before. And I said, Well, why not? Why you, this company must get their products or supplies from somewhere. And most likely, there's an overseas part of it as well. This company has never been asked by consumer, what is your stance on human slavery and your supply chain? Now, so you know, hopefully, I've made that person go back and actually ask them questions of that company. But a company can easily make a difference by actually thinking about their supply chain, and thinking about social procurement, what we call social procurement, which is buying from social enterprises. Don't go and buy from a company that just only cares about profit, go and buy from a social enterprise actually is making a difference. There are so many wonderful social enterprises that you can buy things from and just simply through your purchase, you are making it difference to the people they employ or their supply chain or their suppliers. Yeah, in some way, whether they're from overseas or even Australia, you can make a simple but huge difference through your purchase.

 

Tim Buxton 

It's keeping people accountable. Right, as well. It's keeping that business accountable, as well as not only having an impact with your purchases, hopefully making big changes at the top where they actually Yeah. Wow. As you could see, we could probably pick any topic in this and and riff off of it. What have been some of the highlights of of your more recent work in? In, you know, this social enterprise could be with with lecturing, it could be this new course you've got coming up? I mean, yeah. What's some of the things that are really?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yeah, look, I think my highlights are when I actually see and hear students who take what they've learned, and they run with it, whatever that is. And in this case, you know, seeing people who take the idea of social enterprise and go, actually, I want to do that, and they go off and actually do it. And then you know, they give me a call, or I watch them on social media and go they're doing it, they're really doing it. Now that that just gives me the biggest buzz, right? Because you never want to just be preaching or just just talking to people and going in one ear and out the other. You want people to like go, Wow, let's what can we do with this? And then because that's my goal now, yeah, is to not work with one organization. It's to work with all of these organizations, because they're all leaders, you know, there's many, many people that come to our courses. And so hopefully, I'm, I'm the little stone. And I'm hoping that I'm making the ripple effect going out. So I might be making a big difference that I don't know about. Yeah. But that's my hope and my goal, so but any kind of little feedback that I get about that? Or if I see something that I think yes, you know, there's someone who's been in my class and look at what they're doing now, or they've been to a webinar, or they've been to my teen buns, which is my little community. 

 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. Check that out.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Tea & Buns

 

Tim Buxton 

On Facebook, or how do they find out about it?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yeah, if you follow me on social media, so LinkedIn, or Twitter, yeah, I always talk about Tea & Buns, which is once a month, I just basically open my office door. But in the virtual sense, it's a zoom call, anyone is invited. And we talk about all sorts of different topics and issues, you know. And so that is another way of me just talking to people about issues that are important to them, issues that are important to the sector research that's come out. And again, it really it's a really wide array of, of things that we talk about. But anyway, so my highlights are those that all that little feedback, someone has taken and gone. It's not just gone in one year, and it's it's really made a difference to them and their work.

 

Tim Buxton 

Well did you know, the last people that I interviewed, that the live podcast right now as we're talking is Mantua a social enterprise with. And I thought this would be perfect bringing you in having this been the latest episode. They were brought under the wing of I think, Tom Allen and the whitebox enterprise brilliant through. And it just is so phenomenal. There's a whole kind of group of people that are trying to provide all the coaching and support and the finances to help get these social enterprises off the ground, just like man to a sewing studio, which is doing something very close to my heart, which is empowering, especially those that have a refugee or migrant background, providing them the dignity, education, and training and then a job.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

So the reason why we need that community of support and mentoring and education for social enterprises, is because we need people to teach them business skills. They've usually got the social stuff down. That's you gave normally they understand what's leading them to this idea that they want to do something to help the community. It's the business side that these people who are running social or starting social enterprises, that's the thing that they really need help with.

 

Tim Buxton 

And they've probably got the passion and the enthusiasm to go with it too. Yeah, starting a business is one thing if you don't really passionate about it, it's probably not gonna get very far. Yes. If the minute you hit the first hurdle, you're like, well, I guess let's try something else. But if you're passionate about something, they've got it. They just need the the railroad right they need the the budgets and the business plans to help keep that train on the tracks.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

My other really exciting thing that you mentioned was the new course that we're in next year, which is an undergraduate course. So this is for business students, actually, it can be for any students. But it is a business course unit. And young people who are just starting out on their undergrad degree can come and do this unit can choose as an elective, but they can choose it, and learn about social enterprises and more learn right at the beginning of their studies, that there's such a thing as social enterprise, and they can finish their degree and actually not have to wait until or even maybe even start up their own social enterprise that there is this thing that there is this industry that they can join, and it will give them so much more fulfillment. Come on, come on. Yeah. And so we're so excited about opening these young people's eyes to this concept of social enterprise, which many of them may have just like they've heard of Thank you water, or they might have heard of, you know, a couple of like, fake more famous ones, like it gives a crap or something like that, where they might have gone Oh, what's what's the I know, that's not kind of a traditional business, but they don't really understand what it is or that it's a social enterprise. So now we're going to have the opportunity to teach sorry.

 

Tim Buxton 

That is so exciting. And when does that start? That starts the teaching.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Next year, so yeah, first semester in in 2021. 

 

Tim Buxton 

Oh, so good. Yeah. Well, I know you like, you're right at the thick of trying to get get everything together. But it sounds like it's, it's already got a lot of interest. And yeah. I've loved thoroughly doing the ICPMS course that graduates Yeah, I'll tell you. Why, you know, have had having been a founder of a charity myself, and realizing I've learned all the things I'm doing wrong for to start with. But also, which is good to actually know. And when we feel it fairly early days, only a few years old. And like anything, things don't always start out in perfectly well, you just starts by just getting in there and having a crack. And then as you mature, you grow from from infancy to adolescence, you realize the need for all the board of governance things in place the this fiscal and ethical components to make sure everything is done well. So I'm learning a lot. And hopefully, it's not mad at me, I'm not mad at you at all. And learning again, how to be a student, I have to say, too, I love being able to connect the academic world with this as well. Because researchers, you've been one of them now as well, gosh, you've achieved so much. But researches provide us with incredible insight and information to help us know. You know, how we can adjust and change the way we do things to for the future. And so even even just kind of delving into that research, critical thinking, instead of just reading a popular book for my inspiration, yeah, there's some powerful journal articles out there. realm of study that that can, you know, really be so valuable.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

I haven't read a novel in years. 

 

Tim Buxton 

Ah, really, my goodness, Well,

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Look, I like going back to university, like someone who's been driving a car, and he's very confident driving the car, but has never actually had an instructor sit there and say, Look, actually, this is a really good way more efficient or effective way of doing driving. Yes, I use that analogy. And when and so you can be a very confident and and I was certainly before I went to ICP Ms. myself, you know, I'm a graduate myself, and, you know, I'd been in the sector, 20 years working in the community running organizations, you know, there were there were elements of my work that I felt very confident about. But when you go to university and go and do study at this level, which is the Masters level, you know, you kind of you get calibrated, you know, any kind of go, Oh, you know, I'd forgotten I wasn't doing that as well as I should have, you know, it's like having a driving job,

 

Tim Buxton 

I don't think i'd pass my driving test now. I failed three times to get it the first time.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

So it's kind of like that. So that's when I tell people like come and do this course. And they say, but I'm working in the sector. I'm really a leader in the sector. And I say, yeah should still come and do this course 

 

Tim Buxton 

Even if you can't do it. Find someone within your organization, put them through it, the value that they will bring to and there's their scholarships. I'm grateful to be a scholar myself, someone that got a one of the scholarships on offer. And there's ways to do it. And they get amazing lectures like you, they really care for you and support you and really will do bend over backwards, get you through to the other

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

Yes, to be able to, because we, the sector, that I'm talking about the nonprofit sector and social enterprise, but mainly the nonprofit sector. Yeah, we need to elevate the professionalism of the sector. And there are a lot of people like myself who train in a trade, like nursing or social work, or whatever it might be, you get your undergrad, and then you just kind of become part of the sector, but you don't really go back and learn around governance and leadership and, you know, impact measurement, and, you know, all those really critical things that we need for the community to understand how professional this sector is, and that we're making a difference. We're not just talking and being do good. In that sense, you know, yeah, no, we are really professional, about what we do. And, you know, the impact that we make,

 

Tim Buxton 

You know, you make a great point, I think it's one thing to just have an idea and, and have good intentions. But to sit down and build a plan. And to be like, is this actually going to make a difference? Is it just all outcomes? I mean, outputs, right? Is it just all stuff we're doing? Yeah, because the charity industry, I've seen it overseas, you would have seen it overseas, yeah. Often can be can do a lot more harm. by just doing stuff, then by actually sitting back assessing how can we, yeah, do do programs or, or meet a need? Yeah, that's actually going to have a positive impact.

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

If we're serious about making social change, we have to start measuring and reflecting and reviewing and taking it very seriously about the impact that we're making. Because we're there, we're not doing good enough, like we are really not doing good math. And even in Australia, we have millions and millions of dollars going into the sector, through either grants or donations. And we still have incredibly bad stats on homelessness and domestic violence and poverty and child abuse and all of those terrible things that we want to address, and we need to be looking for solutions for And so yeah, we need to be very accountable, and start taking it seriously. And we want the community to know that we're taking it seriously.

 

Tim Buxton 

And I like the way you kind of you emphasized, obviously there's a wide variety of issues, but how important employment and education actually is to getting to the root of these issues if we can provide training and education, which is empowerment, yep. employment. Yep. And throughout, whether it be through our businesses that we create, or opportunities that we provide. It has a powerful, powerful bility to address those systemic problems, right. When someone is empowered enough to take care of themselves, yeah, provide for themselves. Yeah, they feel dignity that they're there. they've graduated, they've learned, I mean, there's so much, there's so much to that, and so much what I love about the whole realm that you're leading us into, which is so exciting. Yeah. Anything else? That's kind of on the horizon route that, that you haven't shared, you're very busy person. So yeah. Is there anything else that is on the horizon for you?

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

I'm working on a whole lot of things really, again, around that research. And one of my PhD was looking at culture. And that's my other, you know, really big issue that I want to make a difference in. I want to look at the health and well being internally of organizations, and how we are first and foremost looking after our staff. Yeah. And looking after ourselves, and how we're running organizations with the best possible culture. And so yeah, that's my other really big interest in how do we do that? Because when you think about nonprofit organizations and social enterprises, they are usually working with or for traumatized people, people with domestic fight, you know, all of those again, social issues and it is quite is stressful and it is. There's a lot of trauma for vicarious trauma, vicarious trauma passionate for two. Absolutely, absolutely. So first and foremost, we need to make sure that we have healthy staff, healthy volunteers, people who are passionate enthusiastic about what they're trying to do in their work. And if we don't have good culture, good organizational culture, and good leaders who understand how to lead their culture, and how to make sure that our staff and volunteers are, yeah, healthy, mentally and physically, spiritually, whatever it is, you know, we've got to make sure that we look after the people that are in this sector and that are making a difference. So that's my other. Yeah, really big interest in how do we do that. And I would like to see his his my goal, I would like to see every organization not just nonprofit, every organization, I would like to see have a culture plan. So just as if you have a budget, or a marketing plan, or any other plan, because you know, it's important for your business, I want to see every organization have a culture plan, where we understand how we're building and nurturing culture so that we get outcomes, right, we've got to focus on outcomes. But how do we do that in a healthy supportive, enthusiastic way so that people continue to love working on social issues and and and, you know, the social outcomes that they're making?

 

Tim Buxton 

Phenomenal! How can people keep in touch with you? How can they follow you and learn more about this stuff? Yeah, you're doing.. So you said LinkedIn,

 

Dr Ruth Knight 

LinkedIn, definitely. Yeah, don't come and find me on LinkedIn. Because I'm always sharing Yeah, what's going on? Twitter as well. You'll find me there. And also just give me an email or just look me up a CP ns is website so you just Google cutie a CP nS? Yeah. And you'll find the website and all the amazing research that ICP ns does our courses, how to get in contact with us everything.

 

Tim Buxton 

And if you look, and if you want to study with ACPNS either their postgraduate studies but the new year undergraduate course, you will have the privilege of will learning from your Israeli and I highly recommend it. I'm loving it myself. It is challenging, but anything good, right, anything? That's right, yeah. I think stretches you and pushes you beyond your limits. I mean, what a testimony. You know who you are Dr. Ruth night, never been thought step inside of University. I'm so honored and privileged tonight. And thanks for coming down. Thank you for coming to the studio. Thank you for carving out this time. And yet we've got to do it more often. Thank you.

 

Tim Buxton 

Well, there you have it. My conversation with Dr. Ruth Knight. She's incredible isn't she? Look, if you want to learn more about her Tea and Buns conversation that she has quite regularly if you want to find out more about the courses that QUT that she's a part of head on over to the show notes. I'll upload all the links there and other ways that you can follow her or get in touch. And as always, you can hear the rest of the conversation where I sit down with her and ask her some bonus questions. You can do that by heading on over to www.patreon.com/justicematters. And then you get all the content before a small donation towards the production of this podcast. $5 a month gets you access to all the bonus content as well as behind the scenes extras. And you can also interact with the podcast and myself a little bit more there. Now speaking of this podcast, it is up to Episode 19. Can you believe it? We have got 19 episodes in the can that means it's just one more episode for season one to round out. And it is with none other than the Mayor of Toowoomba, Paul Antonio, I'm heading up yp Toowoomba and I'm gonna interview him live in person I cannot wait to bring you the last episode of season one I can't believe we've got there. Now it's time for the credits. And first off the ranks his music artists John Ardnt and David Gungor. They provide the music to this podcast and it's under their group name called "The Brilliance thats who they're known by. Go check him out there has some really really good stuff out there. Thanks guys for giving us the music for justice matters. Now, as always, my shout out goes to Jose Biotto. The audiovisual expertise that you provide in producing the show every week man. Thank you so much. I really do mean it. Lastly there is one more way you can support the show. You can rate us on Apple Podcasts on Spotify, you can subscribe to us on YouTube. You can share any of our videos or episodes in any which way you so choose. By getting the word out, you help us to spread the word and the content that we're producing here, which I love doing, and I feel so passionate about. And you also ensure that more people support us and get behind us so we can keep doing it. Don't wait to start recording season two. Now that's a wrap for today's episode. Please join me again soon for another show of Justice Matters. I'm your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.