Matt Willingham is a veteran writer, photographer, and content manager with twelve years experience living and working in some of the hardest-hit conflict zones in the world.

He has worked for various nonprofit organizations throughout Southeast Asia, the Middle East, and North Africa, and now back in his home country of the USA.

Today, Matt serves as the Marketing And Public Relations Manager at City Heights Community Development Corporation in San Diego.

There are only a few people willing to venture into war-ravaged cities like Mosul, Raqqa, Sinjar or Fallujah, and when Matt has gone in, often leading teams providing emergency humanitarian aid, he has always left carrying with him stories of hope and beauty in amongst all the ashes and rubble.

Along the way, Matt has garnered several awards for his compelling photography and writing. Personally, I have found his work to be some of the most moving, strikingly beautiful, deeply profound, and yet somehow so very relatable, that I have come across. I also have the privilege of calling him a true friend. As we had this conversation, it honestly felt like a therapy session — not in a sad or depressing way, but in a healing way as we shared our stories of living in Iraq, where we met, and the subsequent journey of re-entering life back into Western society with our families.

Do yourself a favor and visit https://www.mattwillingham.com to learn more about Matt’s work. You can also find him on Instagram & LinkedIn @mattwillingham.

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Matt Willingham 

It wasn't until incredible Iraqi people came alongside me and said, "hey, we we have so much to show you and to teach you about how to how to grieve, how to how to hold on to joy in the midst of sorrow, how to how to just be more human, yes be a person. And what they will ultimately doing is like, slowly, you know, taking my hand metaphorically and sometimes quite literally, and decolonizing my heart, and the empirialising my heart taking away that sense of superiority that at least in the United States, I can say is very pervasive. The belief that we've got it figured out that we are right, the better and we're going to help you and here's come some freedom, you know, and if there's anywhere at least in my lifetime, where that has been devastating. And an obvious way, Iraq, and go to be there during the war for about a, I guess, almost a year and then just the tail end. And then after the war ended, and then being there in the fallout with ISIS, it was just this never ending reminder of, of how much I need to learn from some of these mistakes and how a part of all that I really am, and was

Tim Buxton 

You're listening to justice matters with Tim Buxton, a podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.

Tim Buxton 

Good morning, or good afternoon. Matt. How's it going over there in San Diego? 

Matt Willingham 

It's going well.

Tim Buxton 

That's good. Welcome to my podcast. So glad to get you on today. We Well, we had a bit of trouble getting on yesterday and that is all my fault. I wrote the time and date down wrong on the white my fancy little whiteboard here in the studio, and you're ready to go. Sorry about that, man.

Matt Willingham 

Please do not apologize. I got confused too. And I think part of the reason that we got confused is I think I changed the date. At least twice. So well. Let's be honest, kind of on me.

Tim Buxton 

Oh you're too nice way that we know i i got this one wrong, but hey, might it is um, we had a bit of an Instagram Live Chat. Was that a couple months ago now? Maybe? Probably.

Matt Willingham 

I don't know what time it ever is or what day it ever is anymore. But yeah, it was uh, it was recent. Yeah, it was recent.

Tim Buxton 

That was good. That was just as we're getting ready to launch the podcast and I'm stoked that we now get to do our official or my official interview with you. I can't wait to let people know a bit more about you your work, your story, your journey. And, yeah, can't wait to hearing how things are going. So you're in San Diego right now and it's the middle of summer. What's it like down there? How's how's life treating you with even amidst all the Corona saga that's going on

Matt Willingham 

Life's has been great. We, we were looking for a place to settle at least for a while after being abroad and just to kind of recover, you know, just relax and enjoy one another as a family and just recuperate and you know, San Diego is not a bad place to do that Gold Coast is a great place to like what was kind of like the So Cal. 

Tim Buxton 

I feel like the Gold Coast is very similar to San Diego. Definitely 

Matt Willingham 

Well, you're just stoked, like everyone here so stoked. Yeah, I didn't know you. Do the people there say that.

Tim Buxton 

Stoked. Yeah, I would say California stoked. We're more I would say people here more chill. Yeah, and I don't know if now that that even relates, but it is so laid back, which I know, you California is especially to the rest of America, New York, where I spent most of my time in the States. But um, but yeah, it's a good vibe, every life is good. No, you cannot complain, even though these seem to be moments where there's lots of people hurting and lots of things to be concerned about.

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, you know, it's funny, before we moved to Iraq, I had ideas about what Iraq was like. And then you look like an inch below the surface. And you realize Iraq is a billion trillion times more than all the stereotypes. And it was actually true of Southern California, too. I had these ideas of what Southern California is like. And some of that holds up. Obviously, there's cliches for a reason. But you look a few inches below the surface, and you see a lot of people really hurting and struggle. And it's just been a good reminder that look a little deeper, and you'll find the hardship no matter where you are, even in a place like this. That's often assumed to be a paradise.

Tim Buxton 

Mm hmm. 

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, a lot of people having a tough go.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, I had an interesting kind of, I'm not one for Twitter that much. But I did have an interesting back and forth with a notable person on Twitter, very recently. It was it was in regards to posting a, you know, kind of a depiction of some of the riots going on, in one of the cities in the US. And my challenge was, look, I'm sure that's just not the big picture, that might just be a small three block radius. And so for me, that was kind of like my experience, like yours was in Iraq, it's what you kind of go into a place when you've only really kind of your only thing that you're going on is what you may be reading the news and the media is probably most likely going to be a fair way off the fuller bigger picture of what is the reality and that can go both ways, right? Like you mentioned, it can be there can be a lot more pain and hurt, then then you think or perceive, or it could be a lot more beautiful and magical than Yeah, yeah, that's well said. But um, look, mate, I I was making some notes for interview and I was trying to kind of think about our first the first time we met and it brought me back to probably one of my most memorable experiences in living in Iraq. Obviously, we both had families living and working in a similar region, but you like about four hour drive away. Through most people, most people in a, you know, Iraq would do it in probably three hours, but we tend to drive a little more safely with with the kids in the car. This trip actually took us like five and a half hours to get to your house. I don't know if you remember how long it took us. I just remember

Matt Willingham 

Uou guys rolled up and like spilled out the car. Oh my gosh, like just exhausted jellyfish people like I just remember. Like, okay, that was a road trip. So

Tim Buxton 

We had a mutual friend, someone that was staying with us that wanted to meet with you. And I think it had been like maybe 18 months or you know, couple years since we had actually, we'd been interacting. We actually met you we'd known about you obviously and it's a small world you kind of know about other other families and hear her about them and we could not wait to meet you You and our kids to meet your kids and, and but, you know, like you're where you lived is like several mountain ranges kind of a way. And it's almost like another. It's another country, it seems to the smaller town that we were living in. Yeah. And it felt like we crossed several country borders getting to you, we actually I wanted to take the scenic route, which is kind of what I like to do in life and my wife is usually preferable for the more straight direct routes that don't require lots of winding and turning, especially with kids that can tend to get carsick. Well, we ended up going through I don't know if you remember, we ended up going through the Qandil mountains all the way why we took a wrong turn. And it was an extremely scenic wrong 10. I mean, you know, what's that Street in San Francisco? That's so windy. What's that called? I can't remember. But I know you're talking about something. Anyway, for any of you out there listening, you probably know there's that really windy Street in San Francisco. Well, the Kurdistan Region of Iraq has that same kind of road and we took it and the interesting thing was is the Turkish military had recently just done one of their semi regular you know, skirmishes with a group called the PKK. And that had their basically headquarters in this in this region. And the photographer friend of mine, when we got to a certain spot was like, I've got to get out and take some photos, right. And so of course, we start off we get some incredible photos, we jump back in the car. Well, literally, there was no one around I don't know how anything happened. The only thing I saw was one big kind of semi trailer truck just pass us we got to the bottom and in the middle of the road with these two, two kind of you know, military looking guys standing in the middle of the road and they pull this over is just kind of normal but this for some reason. This just seemed a little more less official. Let me let me put it that way. There was no kind of clearly marked kind of building to say this was some kind of checkpoint anyways. We played dumb like we didn't, I did not know any of the language or anything like that. We were just trying to like, oh, hopefully they'll just let us we really didn't know where we were. But apparently the the truck driver must have tipped them off, or somebody they must have found seen us taking photos. And All he wanted was Where's your camera? Where's your camera, I want to see these photos. Let's show and so I ended up showing him my phone. And our photographer shoved her camera underneath that the car seat is like playing dumb as well. And once you flick through and so there was just nothing on there and we were able to pass through. But that what was supposed to be a three hour drive ended up taking us five and a half hours. And it was it was quite quite a fun adventurous trip getting there. And of course, we had several children. I think two out of our three thrown throwing up in the lap of our of our friend. I don't know if you remember Jessi? Jessi could not wait to get out the car this smell it was like ah, anyways, that was that was how we will feel like

Matt Willingham 

I remember that was when I first met you is when you got another car. Yeah, the first things you said to me after like your name was like sorry if I smell like throw up. Yeah, that's, that's okay. No context. I'm sorry if I smell like throw up.

Tim Buxton 

Oh, yeah, it was. Yeah. But it was. Look, a great story now for me. Yeah. And for me when we when we got into your home, it just didn't take long for me to realize I had found a kindred spirit. I had found someone who I feel like I could just relate to without even saying a couple words. And that's what I appreciate you about you. Matt, you're someone who I feel like it's so easy to talk to, to, to know your your honesty, your and your ability to do that. Not only in life, I think but with your craft as a photographer as a writer reporter. That is that is a gift that you have and your work is probably some of the best I've seen and what saying that just because I know your ability to capture a moment And to pin words that just seemed to they, every time I read your, your, your, your words, I feel like just drawn right in and it touches my heart. And I really think that's a it's a gift that not only you have, but I'm so grateful that you you faithful to share that with others. And I'd love to know like for you, obviously someone who was drawn to to live overseas and to do humanitarian work, what kind of came first few was this passion for for that work? Was it to this love of photography or writing? Can you? Can you kind of, you know, shed some light on that for me?

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, I mean, I didn't start taking pictures until, like a year or two into being in Iraq.  

Tim Buxton 

No way.

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I didn't. I mean, we had a little Sony camera, but I didn't really ever use it it my wife more shot with that. I mean, I didn't even really want to move abroad. I was just so smitten with a girl. And she said she wanted to like right after college, she wanted to move overseas, she wanted to get out of the US just get out of Texas, California to get out of these places that she'd been. And I was like, Well, I don't I don't know what a Thailand is, like, I legitimately didn't even know that was a country. But I, I really wanted to be where she was. And you know, what, 14 or 15 years later, we're still together and I'm still chasing her around. So for us, it was like it was just, and her especially but me as well, it was this desire to just experience life and culture and the world beyond what we'd known. And I feel like curiosity was really kind of at the core. And a desire to be challenged. And just to Yeah, just to explore together. But for me, it was mainly her. But the more that we were away from our home country and home culture, the more that I found myself wanting to find ways to communicate different aspects of what I was experiencing. And I think photography and writing really became an outlet for that it felt like a good way for me to process what I was experiencing then and over time, I just started trying to share it, especially once we got to a rock a place that is often depicted. So one dimensionally nitori. Like almost. I mean, like it's I mean, to me it pretty much it's bordering on ethical, the way that it is often presented. I know that you can dig and you can find more, but it just feels like it only gets that negative press. And yet I was experiencing so much richness, kindness, beauty, gorgeous landscapes, just so much great food, like I was experiencing so many things. And it was like, and when I was talking to my friends back home or in other parts of the world, it was or my family, it was like, just the assumption of this is all there is and I just had this need to show something else like this is not fair. It's not fair. It's not loving to depict Iraq. So one dimensionally and so I think that's where a lot of it came from is initially curiosity and then a desire to just give people a little bit more of a multi dimensional glimpse. And to see the common ground that we all share to see that we all have so much in common, so much more than we often assume. That's a really broad look, but I think that's probably a big part of the motivation for me.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. And did you always feel like that need to kind of maybe tell the the other side of the story or to tell the bigger picture or to what I've known as all that I've known you is to tell the beautiful world that exists rather than just the the, I don't know the the clickbait pessimistic, you know, version that so often dominates media and storytelling. 

Matt Willingham  

I think a lot of the emphasis on hope, for me is it's mainly started as a personal thing to help keep me from becoming callous, desensitized, and just to give up, I mean, I think it wasn't long in Iraq before the nature of our work was regularly exposing me and our team to a lot of death and a lot of hardship and a lot of pain. And so I didn't really have any real understanding of mental health, best practices trauma, like I just, I had no frame of reference for that I was 20 something and just assumed I was never going to die and nothing could hurt me. And all of a sudden I start noticing. I'm battling depression, and I'm really struggling with what I'm experiencing. And so that intense emphasis on, where's the good? Where are the helpers? Where's the hope, for me was honestly, first and foremost, just about survival. I don't think there's any way I would have gotten through everything that we experienced, without really focusing on the hopeful because I mean, I anyone can fixate on the negative, that's just, that's easy. That doesn't even take work like especially in a place like Iraq, or right now under COVID. And that's not a criticism, but like, to really tattoo the the goodness of this world on your brain, it takes work. And this was my way of doing that work, was trying to share those stories of hope, not at the expense of also acknowledging the pain, but trying to figure out how to depict life and death right alongside each other. In a way that showed, yeah, there's despair. But there's hope, like right there, like right around the corner where we have eyes for it. Well, I have eyes for it. And I feel like there are a few places I've been, uh, you know, that challenge that more that make that more of an opportunity to really push yourself to see the good and to see hope. And the people I learned that from most. We're not like educated Westerners what it was, it was a Rockies, it was serious, it was Somali was those people because for them, they had no choice, it was even more important for them to find hope to find that little shred of something good, that little tiny silver lining that maybe no one else would notice. But they managed to catch out of the corner of their eye. And it kept them going that day. And so seeing the way that they lived that way, just like scraping the bottom of the barrel for whatever hope they could get. It was unbelievably inspiring, and beautiful to me. And I wanted to try to find ways to just keep sharing that thing.  

Tim Buxton 

As you talk what comes to mind is this thought is there in you, as often finding myself, this desire to almost be like, I want to be able to prove that even the hardest, most difficult, even the most unredeemable aspects of humanity and this world. Can there's still beauty in that. And it's almost like there's this push to, to do that. Does that resonate with you at all? 

Matt Willingham 

Oh, absolutely. And, and like I I have a pretty strong like challenger personality. So like when people told me there's no point in going to a rock, you're not going to be able to do any good to last cause those people over there, they'll just always be fighting. They've always been fighting that kind of nonsense. 

Tim Buxton 

Mm hmm.

Matt Willingham 

Like it didn't it had the opposite effect. I was like, yeah, let's watch me now, you know, like, which is not necessarily the most healthy attitude all the time, and has gotten me in trouble. And I've had have had to apologize for mistakes. And but generally it can be very fueling. Yeah, especially when I put it towards something good. Yeah, it's one thing to be able to see beauty in a difficult landscape. It's another thing to be able to see really great food and a place that's been through lots of war, or maybe some good, good beautiful things in culture, but to be able to establish common ground with another human, especially one that you would assume you couldn't like that became a driving motivation for me. I wanted to be able to sit across from anyone anywhere, and be able to communicate my love for them, my respect for them, and that we have way more in common than not. And if I could walk away from an encounter having done that, regardless of Oh, who cares if I got a good photo, or if I get any photos. Although I it was my job. So I had to try to work for that. But thankfully, I worked in an environment where they very much affirmed, like we go in as people relating to people, first and foremost, everything that we do. And for me, this is just a mantra, everything is is an act of peacemaking and an opportunity for peacemaking. And now they're back in the States. I'm having to learn what that looks like here. And in some ways, as you well know, talked about it can be a lot harder. Yes, but I love the thought of like, Okay, I'm going to go sit in the tent with this guy who was almost certainly an ISIS fighter or he's definitely an ISIS sympathizer, and I want to find out what does it look like to to form a real connection, even if it's just a half hour and make sure he knows that I love him, care for him and his story matters. That's a fun challenge to me.

Tim Buxton 

Wow. And what I'd like to, to kind of get to now is, you know, from your time abroad, how did it How did it change you as a person? Obviously, you you discovered this ability to tell stories to paint a different picture, through through the lens through your writing. And it's grown to be something now. I mean, it's something it sounds like you stumbled upon it but you know, in that process of taking that, that journey and you know, moving into that craft? did how did it impact you and change you had to even living abroad change you as a person?

Matt Willingham 

Man, that's one of those questions that I both hate and love. I mean, come on. It's so big. There's just so much I feel like we could sit you and I could sit and swap thoughts on that for the next 20 hours? It's a great, it's a great question. I'm trying to think of where, where to start, or what to really put the accent mark over? Mm hmm. There were just a lot of things, I think being abroad. When we first went to Southeast Asia, I was a giant. I'm six three. And I didn't think of myself as being particularly tall. But I was just big and awkward and weird and funny looking to a lot of the local people and, and it was really good. It was frustrating. But it was really good for me to experience what it feels like to be the outsider. Because I grew up a dominant culture person, always an insider. I mean, why us American Christian male, I mean, perhaps one of the most privileged, blessed, fortunate, whatever word you want to use demographics. Ever, in some ways, I mean, for us as white Western men, I mean, we just, yep, we're hand were handed a lot. And so I was shocked. I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't asking for it. But to move abroad and to be the outsider weirdo, albeit a very privileged one. But to be that was really good for me. Because it was humbling. And it forced me to ask questions about, well, what is my whiteness mean? What does? What does it mean? What does my passport mean? What does it enable me to do that others don't get to do? What does? What does the overall wealth in my family, which in my mind wasn't extravagant until I left and realize it's significant, especially relative to the rest of the world? What do all those in some of that sounds just kind of cliche stuff that you learn about as a teenager or 20 something but yeah, I think being abroad, and especially being in very poor, marginalized, you know, displaced refugee type communities in East Asia and the Middle East and Africa, like it was, it was just really, really good. For me. It was medicine that I hadn't ever really taken growing up, and I needed in a better light than ever, and I kind of got hooked on that I got hooked on the desire to go Okay, what else do I not really realize about the realities of the world? Because I mean, for most of us, we grow up in a kind of contained bubble type environment that's natural. I'm not gonna like slam that I had a great childhood, but there's a lot I wasn't told a lot. I wasn't shown. And for whatever reason, I noticed some people retreat to that. They just stay in that bubble. They are, they're afraid they don't want to leave it. I'm not slamming them. I know some people maybe need that sometimes I need that. But for me, it was absolutely thrilling to step out of that and just experience It's an unbelievable, I don't know what to call it growth, transformation expansion. I loved it. But it was particularly humbling and getting to Iraq, and encountering people who had suffered at the hands of the US military. And who couldn't even be in the same room as me without just weeping over something that had happened to their family member, their daughters, their children. That was a whole new level of Am I going to retreat back into the bubble of safety? and ignore all this? Because this is hard? Or will I just keep walking into it and do what I was saying earlier about sitting down and trying to be present for that person? Do whatever I could, even if it's through tears, or just with silence, trying to communicate I, I love you, I'm sorry, I'm here, I want to I want to be present to whatever you feel I should be present to. It was I just grew leaps and bounds as a result of that.

Tim Buxton 

I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. And, and, and probably, if your experience was anything like mine, maybe in in ways you weren't planning on growing or ways that were unexpected. I, like many people that feel like they have come to a place to bring help, to serve to to offer assistance, and you're looked at as someone you know, I know, most of my experience when Iraq was was like, like you have the answer, whether it be your military has the answer to help liberate us, or whether it be you your doctors are better than ours and or everything about us. And we kind of went with the with the mentality of like, yes, we want to bring you the help we're coming to to give and to offer you but then to be humbled, and then to realize maybe all along, I'm here to be on the receiving the receiving side.

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, absolutely. I, I say all the time, the Iraqi people were far more of a blessing to me than I ever could have even been to them. And I don't mean that in a trite way. Like, truly, and I know, I've heard you say the same thing. Yeah.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah. And it's, it's difficult because that, that, you know, confronting your own weakness or confronting, confronting some of the, the ideas, maybe of how I'm going to make a big difference and how I'm going to do I mean, I went with a lot of those. I really, I really did not, I hope and pray that, you know, I was able to, to, to be represent my countries, I say, because I'm both American and Australia to represent my family to represent my faith in a good light, for sure. You know, but I, you know, I feel like I wish now I could go back, I wish now I could go with the on the other side of that whole experience and have another crack at it, because I feel like I would I just wouldn't have made the same. lived in under a different, you know, with a different set of glasses on, I would see things so much differently and be able to hopefully, you know, have even a much more positive and hopeful impact on those. I lived in a was around. I don't know if that. Yeah, that resonates with you at all. 

Matt Willingham 

Oh, absolutely. And I think, trying to figure out how to phrase this. So we're getting into some areas that I haven't actually tried to verbalize. But I think that there was something about when I first arrived in Iraq, particularly. My mentality was very, I'm just gonna say imperialistic. Yeah, I didn't call it that. I would have never called it that at the time. But there was a colonial colonizer mentality that I took with me to Iraq. And if someone would have accused me of that I would have I would have been shocked and probably a little offended, but or, but it was true. I went over planning to help. But I didn't go over with a plan to be helped. I didn't go over with a plan to receive I went over with a plan primarily to give and it seems to me that this is a common challenge experienced by people who are in justice related work. We we just we feel we have so much to give the world's on fire. We got to save people But I think it's a really important reminder, it has been, for me at least, that you can't give in an effective, meaningful way you can't give nearly as effectively I should say, unless you are receiving also, there is a symbiotic relationship that we all have. As humans, we're all connected. We all belong to one another. But, but I think particularly this can get off balance in situations of like charitable work, NGO work humanitarian work. I'm looking for those humanitarians and charitable people who are actively hungry to learn from the refugees with whom they work. Yeah, they're excited to receive from them, they know that they have something to gain. And that's not a selfish thing that doesn't make them bad humanitarians. But actually, it just means that they're ready to come in, in a relational way, right? And that there's mutuality, to their work. And you can tell I mean, you You and I both seen it when you go into a situation and it's just here's your handout. blessings be upon you, I bestow this upon you from the back of my truck, you're welcome. I arrived with my white cape and white horse and whatever. That mentality, which I obviously just made exaggerated in a big way to make a point. But that mentality is so pervasive in the midst of this justice work, and it it will, it'll poison us, and it was poisoning me. And it wasn't until incredible Iraqi people came alongside me and said, Hey, we, we have so much to show you and to teach you about how to how to grieve, how to how to hold on to joy in the midst of sorrow, how to how to just be your Yeah, see a person. And what they will ultimately doing is like, slowly, you know, taking my hand metaphorically, and sometimes quite literally, and decolonizing, my heart, and the Imperial realizing my heart taking away that sense of superiority that at least in the United States, I can say is very pervasive. The belief that we've got it figured out that we were right, or better, and we're going to help you and here's come some freedom, you know, and if there's anywhere, at least in my lifetime, where that has been devastating. In an obvious way, Iraq, yeah. And so to be there, during the war, for about, I guess, almost a year, and then just the tail end. And then after the war ended, and then being there and the fallout with ISIS, it was just this neverending reminder of, of how much I need to learn from some of these mistakes, and how a part of all that I really am and was.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, and well speaking of some of those experiences, can you kind of shed light on maybe some of the more more impacting more memorable moments that you had? Whether it was during your, your time in Baghdad or in Libya? Or, or Mosul? You know, you kind of entered into some pretty intense war zones and cynjohn Mountain there as well. In Syria, are there moments that kind of stand out that, that for you? Yeah, just are left with you on the forefront of your mind.

Matt Willingham 

Oh man, so so many. You know, I, so there was, there was one, food delivery to Mosul that was particularly harrowing, I guess, would be a good word. You know, we we pulled up with our trucks. And we got to kind of the last major checkpoint for you're in, in more dangerous areas of Mosul. This was just just as, you know, security forces are beginning to liberate the actual Mosul city limits. And, you know, we had heard that it's pretty much impossible for just everyday people in Mosul to to escape to safe areas, they, there was a lot of concern. And understandably, there was a lot of concern that ISIS sort of sleeper agents, or just you know, ISIS fighters would slip into the safer areas and create chaos and cause problems kill people. And so as the security forces were liberating different neighborhoods of Mosul, they wouldn't allow people to leave now, there are there are situations where they did, but broadly speaking, they weren't allowing them to leave. And yet, the the aid groups weren't really showing up. So the Aid Groups are waiting back in safer areas, the displaced people needing help aren't coming. Like they're sort of supposed to actually remember one Aid Group within a UN organization anyways, with the UN basically, who was like, almost offended. Like we set up all these great camps. You know, and where are they?

Tim Buxton 

Wow.

Matt Willingham 

Anyways, I just remember kind of like, giving them this look like are you kidding me? Well, many just didn't want to come because they didn't trust that the camps wouldn't turn into prisons, which is often what has happened. Yeah. And then others weren't even able to come. Because they weren't allowed out of their neighborhoods. They weren't allowed past checkpoints. 

Tim Buxton 

It's not just that simple.

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, so you have all these people who've endured a horrific ISIS occupation for a very long time. And then it's almost like for them, the occupation just changed hands over to Iraqi security forces. And so, you know, we, the organization I was working with, at the time, just called pre emptive love coalition, decided we're not going to wait, we're going to we're going to take the food to them, it is not right, it is not okay for us to just hang back and expect them to just come to us. And so we had been doing that progressively, throughout the conflict with ISIS, pretty much wherever we could get as close as we could get. We were taking, taking food, taking hygiene, supplies, taking shelter, taking water taking, you know, whatever we heard was needed. And on this particular day, you know, at this point, we've been doing this a while, and our team was beleaguered. We were exhausted, traumatized. But also, we had gotten a little like, almost inoculated a little cocky. And so I just remember, there was a there was a, an officer and a rookie officer, who came up to us with our trucks at that checkpoint, stuck his head in the window, and he looked around, and he, he pointed at us. And then he pointed at me, he was like, Do you guys know what's happening today? Do you know? Do you you, I need to hear every single one of you acknowledge that, you know, what could happen if you go through with this today. And he was way more on edge than the security forces usually were. Although we'd seen that and so we had gotten I had gotten to where I could just kind of go guys, it's fine. We've done this, we did this in this village in this town. And this we Fallujah, Baqwiza, all these places, whatever. And he was like, okay, because you see those clouds. And it was just heavy, heavy fog. He said, If you go in today, we cannot guarantee your safety because you will have no air support. And when there's no air support, the the risk of ISIS counter attacks is so much higher. And so you need to understand that you guys would be delivering food to an area that was just liberated within the last few hours. And, and you have no air support. So this is a terrible combination. Everything was quiet, you know, like we can hear the guy shouting. It's the only sound anywhere around us. We can even hear gunfire we didn't hear mortar fire nothing, which is rare in a war zone like that. And so you know, that even makes me even more like maybe they're all just sleeping. So anyways, I didn't actually say that because that would have gotten me probably laughed at but you know, it seemed pretty chill that we can we can do this, we're fine. We've survived so much. And we roll up to the little muddy Street. And we start sort of unloading. We got soldiers there who are sort of detailed to watch out for us and help guard the perimeter they spread out. And the community members, the most Lowery's just start kind of coming out. And the haunted looks in their faces, I mean, sunken eyes and just skinny and just this blank stares. It was absolutely heartbreaking. I mean, we've seen some of that. But this was just a new everything was just a new level. And on that particular day, I just remember doing what I do, which is hopping out and going over to the line of people that was forming for our food delivery. And there was a little boy named Hussein. Excuse me, Ahmed, and Ahmed was at the front of the line with his dad and I crouched down and my Arabic wasn't great. It isn't great. But I just kind of started trying to ask him some questions you know his name where he's from and of course he's from here and told me his name and you know two or three questions in all of a sudden the whole world just explodes sniper fire I felt the vibrations of it around my head climbing against the gate next to me. Felt like the the cinder blocks that The build houses with you know what I'm talking about just splintering around me. And people duck and I hear the somebody in Arabic scream the word for sniper. And I just, I would love to, you know, pretend like I went all action hero, but I didn't I just froze and absolute terror. And my Iraqi colleague kind of took me by the arm and like led me over to a Humvee and we hunkered down under a Humvee. And that was the beginning of an ISIS counter attack that went on for hours mortar fire picked up, it became apparent that they were targeting our position, they were aware that we were there. It was absolutely just one of the most unspeakably terrifying things I've ever experienced. And, and we hadn't, it's not that we hadn't experienced war up to that point. Or it was that it was just all around us, it felt like we were surrounded. Now, I didn't want to be like the, you know, take over, like you were just describing and try to be the like, take charge white guy, or whatever. So I, I was, I mean, I think one of our keys, or key Mike, one of my key principles, and all of this, and it was shared by many on our team, and many of my friends and you and others was trust the locals, you got to trust locals, we're not gonna be able to do anything, if we can't just choose to trust local people. And so we did, we erred on the side of trusting locals. But the locals kind of just kept handing out food. And eventually, after about an hour of delivering food as quickly and efficiently as possible under sniper and mortar fire. I was just like, Guys, this is one mortar around, hit right next door to us, and people were not to the ground. And I was like, This is not safe. We're gonna get we're gonna get these people who have survived so much, we're gonna get them killed. We are putting people at risk. This is irresponsible. And yet the people didn't want us to leave. They were telling us Don't leave. Like it was just such a confusing, ethical situation. Because it was clear people were starving. I mean, just it was so hard to to make that decision to like, we got to get out of here. But I talked to, you know, our rocky team lead and he was like, Yeah, okay. So, I mean, when people started getting knocked over, and then soldier was injured, who was there to protect us and seeing him, you know, blood coming out of the back of the ambulance as he was being driven away? It was like, Okay, yeah, like, we don't need any more people to risk their lives just so we can help people here like, hopefully this we got to go. So we pulled back. And I just remember be so overwhelmed, and stunned and shocked. And thinking, Oh, good, like it's over. So we pulled back a little bit to a nearby village that was liberated, like, two days ago, as opposed to like, a few hours ago. And I thought, Oh, this is gonna be better. Well, it was it was more of something similar. Now. We weren't actively under fire, but the people were so utterly traumatized and just overwhelmed by what they had endured. Um, it was it felt almost like zombie like, and I don't want to sound like I'm dehumanizing people. I'm just trying to communicate how it felt the way that they they came out in a mass toward us. And they just refused to even form a line. 

Tim Buxton 

There was desperation, right?

Matt Willingham 

It was so much desperation. And father's... Honestly, I think I would have done the same thing like climbing onto trucks and just grabbing bags and tearing open bags of, of rice and grabbing handfuls of rice and running away. I mean, we were there to give people like a lot more than that. But the desperation and that just mentality of like, Sir, I've gotta serve matter what I mean, it just absolutely broke my heart. But in the middle of all that. These, these two little girls came up, named Qata in Rihab. And they tugged on my sleeve. And they asked if I would take their photo. And I started making silly noises and acting silly and Goofy, and they both just busted out laughing. And, and I took their photo and I sat with them and kind of asked them some questions. If I didn't understand my friend who had helped me get to safety under the sniper fire. My buddy, his son was kind of helping me piece together things I'd fully understand. But they were just telling me about how they could not wait to get back into school. I mean, it was an absolute hellscape 

Tim Buxton 

Wow. 

Matt Willingham 

And these, these two little angels, just like sunshine incarnate were smiling and giggling and joking with me and reminding me like this is where we're all human here. You know, like, yeah, some of us are struggling, but to hear them talk about how they weren't allowed to go to school under ISIS and they were sick of wearing the head headscarf and they were sick of not being able to go outside because they were so shackled and So contained as little girls. I mean, this this is like, these are five and seven year old, six and seven year old, these are little girls. And to hear their, like excitement of being able to go back to school, now ISIS was gone. And everything that they didn't do it and just the joy that was bubbling over at the thought and getting to see their faces in a photo, which they hadn't seen. And in months and months and months under ISIS, like it was that glimmer, you know, I talked about, like, in the midst of absolute hell, like you can always find life finding. And so I hold on to that moment with rehab, even as people are getting into fistfights and ripping food out of our truck, and screaming and crying and wailing. Like, just sitting there with those two girls, it was, it was a profound moment that I held on to to sort of keep hope, keep sanity. So I'd say that was a big one. 

Tim Buxton 

Well, that is heavy. And thank you for sharing, thanks for sharing that. Um, you know, as even as we've been talking, I feel like there's those moments and experiences that we both both had. Mine not nearly as dangerous, or, or life threatening as that. But I feel like when I talk and as we share, and even as we discuss some of these, these, these processes, these journeys, that, that we're on, feel like people are letting it being let in onto a bit of a therapy session with two people just trying to process and figure out and, and have the freedom to retell these stories. It's not easy. It's not many people that you that, you know, that can handle something like that, or that can process something like that, or that can, you know, for what it is not for, you know what, what, wow, that must have been a gnarly experience. But it's more than that. It's It's, it's, it's it. What it is something you hold, that has become a part of you. So thank you for sharing that.

Matt Willingham 

Thanks for being a safe space, man 

Tim Buxton 

I want to honor that moment and and you know, it almost reveals the contradictory nature that a lot of justice work lives within. It just isn't. It's complicated. Sometimes you just can't simplify it with justice is this is right, this is wrong. And this is the answer. And this is how you go about it. And it's just seems so like black and white. And it isn't it's it's difficult, you're trying to create a world through maybe nonviolent means that creates a better world that cuts through the cycle of violence, and yet at the same time, you're going in under the protection of military under the protection of power under the protection of authority. And how do you wrestle with all that, Matt? I mean, I know those were questions, and those are and I'm not expecting an answer to that, but but I just love your thoughts on on that. Because I think a lot of people listening to this, you know, want, you know, want to want to be let in on this conversation, this thought process. And I'd love you know, I think you're the one of those few people that can really speak into it.

Matt Willingham 

Well, I mean, for me, how are you going to it all comes back to love. And I know that word can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. But I mean, love has to be at the center of my life and my choices. And unfortunately, it's often not, but I've learned. And I'm very convinced that if we're going to love Well, we have to understand. And if we don't, if we want to understand we've got to be able to I think also empathize and to have experienced with someone. So, I mean, I didn't I wasn't I never had on my bucket list as a kid growing up, oh, I want to, like go to war zones and try to help people or whatever. Like, that was that was a time in my life. And it came about as a result of saying yes. And that came about as a result of wanting to just love and and so I don't, that's obviously more dramatic. Those stories are big, and you know, they can be I don't actually share them that often. I've only shared that story in a venue like this to other times.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah.

Matt Willingham 

Um, because like you said, it's, it's just because it seems dramatic or sexy or whatever. It doesn't mean it's not precious and hard to talk about but it is

Tim Buxton 

And honestly it's not easy to just access that and just talk about it. Yeah, it takes So I do appreciate you kind of going there.

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, I really do appreciate you just creating a space where people can talk about this kind of stuff, because one of my concerns is well, I don't I don't want these kinds of stories to seem like oh, well, that's the real justice work. I mean, the real work is, is mostly just, we all know people listening know, it's, it's the boring, quiet, monotonous day in and day out kind of stuff. Yeah, but there are those intense, confusing moments. For me, it was it was it was very, very meaningful to get a tiny, tiny little taste of what so many refugees from around the world have experienced, I don't even pretend to understand fully or even in a big way, but to get just a little taste. Like that's an opportunity to practice and cultivate empathy. And that's what I need. It's like we were saying earlier, it can't just be give, it has to also be received. We're going to be involved in this work. And, and so I don't think that I would go back to an environment like that. I'm not eager. I'm not I'm not a thrill seeker. 

Tim Buxton 

Sure.

Matt Willingham 

You know, that movie? What was it? where there were the guy who keeps going back to the Warzone? Hurt Locker? 

Tim Buxton 

Oh, yeah, yeah, I don't, yeah. 

Matt Willingham 

I don't want to be, I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to get hooked on the rush. But I do want to get hooked on having experiences that that really spurred me on toward a deeper, more empathetic understanding of what people are experiencing, especially in situations of great hardship. And so I feel like that's, that's how I frame it. That's how I look back on those times, and make sense of it. And there are a lot of other ways to approach it. But I would say that's probably the most important one. For me personally, this was an opportunity to learn to grow, to understand to empathize.

Tim Buxton 

Yeah.

Matt Willingham 

Otherwise, what am I doing? You know, like, I if I'm not growing, how am I going to be able to get better at actually serving others. It's not a static thing. It has to it has to be about mutuality and mutual growth.

Tim Buxton 

I think that's a great segue into maybe some of the work you're doing now. Now that you've kind of come back to America, obviously, there's a season for you of, of just being a family, be near family. And as you know, that reentry process can be hard, but you found yourself working amongst the community, you can talk a bit about what, you know what what you're doing now, in San Diego, amongts a community of highly diverse cultures and ethnic backgrounds, many of them displaced. And I would love to kind of, kind of frame it in the sense of you tell us talk a bit about your work, but then how how, how is your own experience of having been forced into this reentry? This? Where do I where's my place? Again, now I'm back here in America, and how you can then relate that to your work? very open ended question there. But yeah.

Matt Willingham 

Well, I mean, I think grief has been a big part of this transition, grieving the loss of identity of being in Iraq, being known as that family, that guy who is in Iraq, trying to help people. Just grieving, moving, you know, grieving being a neck not being an ex Pat, like a lot of things. And I feel really fortunate to have had people tell me over and over again, this transition is going to take time, you're going to have to grieve and grief just sucks period. Whether you're moving on the other side of town or around the world, like you're experiencing a kind of death. And with that comes grief. And I had people tell me those kind of things up front. And I really hope they weren't right. I hope that this transition wouldn't take two or three years. I hope that it takes like two or three months, but they were right. I mean, we're on year two of living in the US. And it's just it just has taken time and and that's good. I'm really grateful for the work that I do get to do. There's a lot of overlap. And so it's I think it's made it a little easier for me. I didn't go straight into like a super corporate kind of sterile desk job. I got a job. Like a week after we landed I had a look before we landed I had a job lined up and a week after we landed I started, which may have been a little sudden but sure. I work with a small nonprofit that I can guarantee nobody listening has ever heard of that is completely focused on just serving this one neighborhood of a city. So So I went from like working with this increasingly popular and known nonprofit that was working internationally. And you know, was getting a lot of applause. And people wanted to follow and like and celebrate and donate to this tiny, tiny little nonprofit that's almost 40 years old, older than me, based in this one neighborhood of San Diego, in Southern California, in the United States. And it was, really, it was exactly what I needed. My, for my own ego, for my desire to live out my values and my principles, and to not allow other things to get in the way of that. It's, it's ultimately been exactly what I needed. And I love it because I get to still work with refugees, the communities in it's called city heights in San Diego. And it's one of the more diverse neighborhoods in the United States. It's a refugee resettlement community. 

Tim Buxton 

Wow. 

Matt Willingham 

Through the UN, and you've got a lot of littles you've got little Saigon over here you've got little Baghdad down the road you've got or not sorry, little little Iraq, some people call it Baghdad, some people got little Somalia. You've got a lot of different communities, they, they're still not even sure how many dialects and language groups are really spoken. There's, there's disagreement on the number. But it's a it's it's it's bizarre, because it's like we were talking about before we started recording, you know. You, you think of a place, you know, like San Diego, or the Gold Coast or a rock and you think of just, you know, the sort of headline, verbiage you know,

Matt Willingham 

Sure. 

Matt Willingham 

Beautiful weather, San Diego beaches, chill vibe, whatever. But you don't think of such an unbelievably culturally rich, diverse place, just a few miles inland. And many of those people struggling and really, really enduring some significant injustice. Um, and so getting to sort of step into that and acknowledging like, yeah, some of the stuff I've experienced abroad was helpful, but a lot of it, it's just not going to serve me here. So am I going to come in ready to listen and learn and, and just be present to the needs of people here, just like I said, I tried to do and Iraq and said I was gonna do or am I just gonna come in. And because it's my own country just make a lot of assumptions with a lot of swagger. And I've tried really hard to just come in and just spend time with people. And it's been really good for me, I've heard you say this, too. But it's been really good for me to see what life is like on the other end of things for refugees who are, you know, we've seen what it's like for refugees to run for their lives sure to be in that liminal space, living in tents, or living on train tracks, or living in empty fields, you know, in Europe, or wherever we've seen that, but now to see what it it can be, and how sometimes that's really beautiful people get resettled, they experience something that they've always that they've been looking for sure, no stainable, the safe life. But for many, it's not necessarily bad. You know, and you see the struggle that many refugees face and just trying to get settled. And I've met so many refugees who are for first generation resettled here, who basically said, Look, I know life's never going to be easy for me, I've accepted that. I once dreamed, you know, if I could get to Australia, or Britain, or Canada or the United States, that life would just be easy. I now realize that's not the case, I'm going to have to work my tail off. But I also understand that if I work my tail off, there's a chance that my kids will have that easier life, I want it. And I mean, that's really beautiful. It's really heartbreaking. It's a lot of things for me, but to get to be a part of trying to help make sure that that happens. For families here has been, yeah, just incredibly fulfilling. And I mean, I'm not getting the applause. I'm not getting people excited. And honestly, that's exactly what I need. Just Just opportunities to live out these values that you and I, and so many people listening share, when no one's looking, and sit and to continue learning and to have that mutuality from from people who endured so much. It's been a really rich year and a half in the US. 

Tim Buxton 

Is it.. Does it almost feel like you're on on a similar journey as those that you're kind of working and living amongst, though in that sense of like you're trying to find where do you belong now you're back in America, and they're trying to figure out how to we belong in this foreign country. And...

Matt Willingham 

I mean, I definitely see similarities but I'm really slow. I'm hesitant to-

Tim Buxton 

Sure. 

Matt Willingham 

-make that comparison. Because, I mean, I came back to family ready to receive me excited that, that my wife and I and their grandkids were not in this sort of more volatile area. So and I was taking care of maybe nice cushion landing, but I do like feel a kindred spirit of closeness with refugees who feel so wayward. Because I do feel that a lot of the time Yeah, I guess, questionable longing, like we were talking about,

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, that more of an idealogical you've both experienced this, what is home? What is you, you know, what is, what does it mean to be on the end, you know, of a community and that something that takes time years often?

Matt Willingham 

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, you mentioned that because just a couple of weeks ago, I was at my current job in city heights, we run a refugee garden. And it's, it's one of the first gardens of this kind. In the United States. Michelle Obama visited it several years ago. It's it's somewhat known, but we didn't found it, but we just took it over. And I was sitting around the picnic, one of the picnic tables, with a guy from Myanmar, a woman from Bangladesh, someone from like, like three or four people from a few different East African countries, you know, Eritrea, it was just it was this this bizarre eclectic gathering of people who would come just attend to their, their garden plot for the evening. And we're all sitting around and swapping stories, and I didn't feel I didn't feel in any way. Like I didn't belong with them. And, and I often in my San Diego suburb feel like I don't belong. But and i don't i don't know what that necessarily means. I'm still trying to sort that out. I think you might be kind of trying to sort some of that out too. But like, it was just this other reminder yet again, of what I've experienced so many times from people who've lost home. It's just a some profound hospitality, and welcome from people who know what it's like to be without. Yes. And, and I love that garden. I love those people. I love that community, because I feel that from them, they know what it's like to have everything ripped away from you, and they don't take it for granted. And yet, instead of sort of becoming super self protective, and I'm going to keep all this to myself, and you stay out you get off my property, that's my land. That's my money. Don't you threaten my business? It's, it's the opposite. It is just this unabashed invitation into their life. Very few questions asked. And just sitting around that picnic table a couple of weeks ago was just such a reminder of like, everyone is looking for home, but not everyone is necessarily eager to help others find home. And I think that's one of my favorite things about refugees is Yep, many. They, they're not only eager to find home themselves, and to feel that sense of safety and establishment. But they're, they're very willing to try to help others along as well. An 

Tim Buxton 

They're the first they're the first ones to offer-

Matt Willingham 

Absolutely, because they know what it's like. 

Tim Buxton 

Because they know and yeah, I mean, I feel you know, we we were talking the other day about this at more length this idea of, of where where we seem to be at and on and on this planet right now there are reverberations of cries for justice cries for equality cries for a world where, you know, kind of white kind of made the tagline for this podcast, a world where everyone belongs, and it's a fight or fight to get to that place and we're seeing that that played out on our TV screens right before our very eyes. What's happening obviously in America gets pop publicity, but it's it's the story of, of First Nations people here in Australia, of people all over the world. And, and I think, at the core, the very heart of that is this notion of are we willing to build a world where everyone truly does belong? yet? It just seems so difficult right now. There's such an us them. Narrative there's Yeah. You said like, will you be willing to come and sit in my house in my room and feel belonging, like without Having to that, from the very get go. I mean, that's something that's often afforded, you know, you've got to kind of do your time here in this place before we'll let you, you know, you know, be one of the guys or one of the crew, you know, here. Yeah, how do we create an environment with that? That is truly fell, whether you're an asylum seeker, a refugee, that's, you know, been there been in your host country for three years, or whether you're a local, whatever that may be.

Matt Willingham 

We do whatever we can to cultivate empathy. I think there are a lot of ways to respond to that question. I don't mean to be reductionistic. But at least in the United States, there is study after study after study that indicates our levels of empathy, as a population in this part of the world, at least, are in decline. decade after decade, we see drop off, drop off drop off in terms of empathy. And this is not just some random sort of little group that's doing some This is like, our pillar universities, Ivy League universities in our country. It is, in my opinion, one of the greatest crises, crisis crises, I don't know what the poor I see, it's a huge crisis. I'm gonna edit that one out. But it's it's a massive crisis. And, and it contributes to what we're seeing right now, in terms of the wave of nationalism, America first kind of thinking, so many things that have been confusing to me about my nation. And to be honest, in other places, as well, I mean, in rock, and I mean, we could easily depict Iraq as cozy place, but but I feel like they were- 

Tim Buxton 

My tribe first, my political party first  

Matt Willingham 

A canary in a coal mine for me of seeing, not only incredible peacemakers in Iraq, brilliant, kind, amazing people in Iraq that we both encountered again, and again and again. But but I think we also saw what tribalism could look like what sectarian sectarianism can look like 

Tim Buxton 

Of course 

Matt Willingham 

And to me, like one of the greatest needs across the board is, is empathy. And so I'm excited to see like, for example, the school that we just enrolled our four year old and our seven year old at, they have actual courses on empathy. And I am, I'm the teacher, so got to figure out how to do this. But we're actually sharing story over and over and over again, just trying to continue to cultivate empathy and understanding. And I think if we want to see a more just world, we've got to be able to feel with others. And I think that many of our devices are, they have great capacity to help that and to help spur on empathy. And they have great potential to absolutely squash empathy out of us. It's how are we going to use them? empathy is not a switch that you just switch on. And now all of a sudden, oh, I can feel with you. I'm going to be brokenhearted with you. I'm going to rejoice with you. I'm going to celebrate I'm going to feel as you feel it's a muscle. So are we going to go to the gym? Are we going to exercise these muscles are we going to watch them atrophy and become couch potatoes, who just don't care? Because I'm seeing that all around me. It's the most jarring thing I've experienced moving back to the United States. And I'm not trying to slam the US. I love my country. But the level of apathy, and snark and sarcasm, and cheap jabs and little comments, you know, on Facebook or YouTube or whatever. It's just, it's just cheap stuff that continually to me is an example of people who are not cultivating empathy. Now, in the midst of a pandemic, when we're all sort of supposed to be on edge, you know, distancing and keeping away from each other. I think cultivating empathy is uniquely challenging because it always happens best in person with people. It just can't be replicated over phone or over a call like this, but but it can be experienced, it can be cultivated, 

Tim Buxton 

But it can be in educational systems where we tell the stories of people that have suffered or just tell other people's stories and not just our our own and 

Matt Willingham 

Absolutely. For me a warning signal a red sort of flashing light is if I'm finding myself feeling pervasive pervading, like prevailing negative feelings toward a whole group of people. That's a sign that I need to spend more time with them. I need to I need to be sitting across from them. So I think a classic example for many people would be Trump supporters in the United States. I don't know if this is a dangerous place to show but there's a lot of division between conservatives and liberals in this country. It's increasing. It's growing, as we normalize extremism as we share things that do not shine a positive light on our enemy, but then offer a lot of context and nuance to our crowd. We see this expanse continuing to grow I, if you think that we couldn't experience a civil war in the United States in my lifetime, kidding yourself. But if we can become the people who continually prioritize and value as a nation, and as a planet, a species empathy, I think that we could actually see some real improvement. But right now, we're not really prioritizing that. And our social media platforms and things like that don't really, the algorithms don't necessarily lend themselves to that our news media doesn't. That doesn't always sell empathy is not a great business model. Or at least I haven't figured out how to make it one. If somebody could, that'd be amazing, save us. But

Tim Buxton 

Well it's hard work. I mean, you kind of pointed that out, it's, it's a muscle, and it's something you've got to work at. You've got to be intentional. And it's not until we I guess we see. Unfortunately, it's not until we see that the symptoms breaking out all around us and the suffering and the pain and the violence and the outbreak or the symptoms of when we're not actually living in empathy that it might actually jar us into actually, you know, doing it, but I really appreciate how you've almost in a way given, given our listeners, something, a reference point to go to, and how to, to kind of move in that direction into cultivated, cultivate. 

Matt Willingham 

I mean, I don't want to beat this to death. But really, like, think about it. If, if you are physically unhealthy, and you want to get healthy, Mm hmm. You either pay someone to force you to follow their plan, like a physical trainer, or you yourself, make a plan and then you follow it. You just even if that plan is as simple as I'm going to go jogging for 15 minutes every morning at 6am- 

Tim Buxton 

Yeah, 

Matt Willingham 

You've made a plan. So we make plans to exercise certain muscles to get to a certain level of fitness. Why would we not make a plan to exercise those metaphorical muscles? Those abstract muscles? Yeah, of our emotional, social, empathic fitness. We've got to be people who prioritize those because I look around in sunny Southern California, and I see a lot of beautiful people running around and you know, swimming, kayaking, doing all the surfing and all that it's great. But you've got to keep asking, okay, but what are you are you exercising even more important muscle Sure, of really being able to feel with others and see how they see understand what they're understanding, and then to live into that kind of compassion that can come from that. I'm not making a judgment of whether or not they are but many people I interact with, it doesn't seem like that was prioritized for them. And I just, I just feel like the more people we can get out there saying, Please make a plan. Write it down. I'm gonna it's Ramadan. I don't even know what that means. But I'm going to go to a nearby mosque, I'm going to ask if I can sit, listen and learn. Yeah, it's going to be off, they might try to convert me to Islam, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm kind of Islamophobic whatever, but I'm just going to try, I'm going to put myself out there and make that plan. But if we don't make a plan to exercise those muscles, muscles of empathy and understanding and compassion, we're not going to get stronger.

Tim Buxton 

We're gonna get sick.

Matt Willingham 

We are sicker and I hear what you're saying. But I also wonder if once we're... at what point is it just too late? You know what I mean? Like I don't want to believe in that I want to be the hope guy but like, start before your body's falling apart, so to speak, you know, start working out. I say this is a guy who physically is like, not good at working out after super lazy, so major hypocrite here, but like, 

Tim Buxton 

No, good analogy.

Matt Willingham 

I think the metaphor works. 

Tim Buxton 

It does. So you said it just then what is what is the hope that what? You know, what keeps you going? What keeps you believing then and not giving up? What keeps you pressing into this work? What what stops you from just throwing it in and being like, you know what, I'm just gonna get a better paying job. And going Oh, Korea that I can actually give my kids a better deal. Oh, I'm sure you can work for an ad agency out there. And and, you know, you've got incredible skills and gifts. I'm just what I'm saying what keeps you believing that this is that we aren't beyond hope? Because I don't see that in you. And I know as as you know, as dyers things look right now, in many ways. You're always pushing into hope and I know that there is this belief in you that it isn't too late. What what is it that drives you? What keeps you 

Matt Willingham 

I mean, my faith is A big part of it. Um, but I think really just personally, I can't deny the change in myself. I mean, I'm really glad Tim, you didn't know me like 20 years ago, because I or maybe it would have been great because you could laugh at me now. But like- 

Tim Buxton 

I have a feeling it would have been similar to you 20 years ago, though too so, 

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, maybe it would have been great right? 

Tim Buxton 

It seems like they've been on a, on a similar journey. 

Matt Willingham 

I was so operating with an us versus them mentality with a, we're right, you're wrong, we're better. We're number one, we're superior. We're, you know, whoever we was, whether it was my, my family, my faith, my I think it was more subconscious with race, but that's totally there. I mean, white supremacy, I've come to believe is absolutely a reality, I'm still trying to understand that. But there were just so many levels of sort of superiority in me, and the number of, of absolutely beautiful, broken, generous people over the years, particularly people of color, just around the world who have sort of gently pried my fingers loose of that sense of superiority. And, and really helped walk me into a much, much richer, more expansive and inclusive and beautiful reality of what can be, I just can't deny it. I can't deny it. And so I don't think anyone is too far gone, I don't think I don't think there's I think that if people could get, start getting tastes of some of this. And I've seen it too, I've seen it and others not just seen what it looks like for people to start experiencing some of these realities. And, and I think I'm hopeful that we're seeing a kind of renaissance in the hearts and minds of many, many, many young people. And just people, at least in my country, I'm encouraged to see, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement, and a really often loud and even noisy conversation around systemic racial injustice and white supremacy, I'm encouraged to finally Oh, my gosh, finally see people thinking more systemically thinking more deeply trying to deal with trying to understand trying to read, trying to make that, apparently, for many of us, myself included very difficult walk just across town to spend time in different parts of the community, to just be present, and to really soak up whatever is is existing in that sort of place. And not assume and not just pretend like everyone's Okay, and everything's okay. I see a lot of that. And it gives me a lot of hope. So even if there's not a lot, I still want to shine a light on it, because it's there. And it matters. And it's, it's the life in the midst of all the death that is resilient and just can't seem to be stamped out. It's almost as if the, the hottest part of the process is what's happening right now. And thank goodness is actually happening, which is the awareness, the peeling back the hay, this is really real moment. If it were not for this moment, you know, and I'm speaking more specifically to some of the racial and justice issues, but there again, so applicable, quite right across the world. If we're, if we're able to keep pushing and keep pushing, and hopefully making small steps of progress, it may just be that the damn wall will burst. And that berlin wall will come down whatever it may be, it just seems right now. And this is me trying to get all optimistic. It seems right now that I love it, you know, that, that it's not making much progress, but you know, there will be a tipping point and you know, I'm hopeful I believe I I know Americans all too well and believe in in them as well as people in Yeah, I'm thankful for the way you as one of them, shine the light, share the stories if anybody wants to stop what you're doing right now jump on Instagram, look up Matt Willingham. Look at look at your work and the way you tell stories, the way you bring hope and light. I mean, I'm thankful that you're out there doing that. And I I'm grateful, not only to know I'm grateful for being able to, to just share this journey with you, mate. As we, as we kind of keep pushing forward. What I love what, what, what's out what's on the horizon for you? Matt, what's, what's coming up. And you know that it's kind of a book coming out way. I hate to say coffee table book because it doesn't belong in a coffee table, it belongs, it belongs.

Matt Willingham 

To be honest, I'm struggling with the book right now I'm, and I've kind of acknowledged that maybe I jumped into trying to write a book too quickly. So I think the name of the game right now is survive the pandemic, don't get so lost in my own thing that I just disappear altogether from the needs and life of my family, which is definitely what happened in Iraq, I very much pursued what I wanted to do at their expense, often. And, of course, that still sometimes happens. But my goal is to be here, try to be present. Try to do my work well, and just see what could be coming. I want to find better ways to share these stories. I love getting to talk with you, man. But I think it's really important, especially for the professional sort of helpers out there to like, have those seasons where you step back and I'm, I'm in one of those seasons, and I'm, I want to pretend like I always enjoy it, but it has been really good and restorative for my soul. I need it, you know, we all need a treat every now and then. And then to get back into it. So thank you so much, though. I love that you started a podcast, by the way.

Tim Buxton 

Ah, well, it's a, I say, this first season is really just trying to catch up with my friends. And so it's really just a good excuse, being all lonely over here in Australia to to really spend some good quality time chatting with some of the people I look up to and admire and and have learned from along the way. And so yeah, I'm glad I started this thing to appreciate. Appreciate you, Matt. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for sharing your heart. Thanks for being thanks for being Matt. I'll make sure people know how to find you in the show notes. actually go there. But do you have a website? do you have?

Matt Willingham 

Yeah, I do. But I need to update it — MattWillingham.com I'm about to start updating it more so let's get a makeover. Yeah, um, but yeah, I'm Instagram is kind of my jam. Yeah. @MattWillingham. I would love to connect.

Tim Buxton 

Sounds great. Alrighty Matt, thanks for being a part of the Justice matters podcast. I appreciate you, brother. We'll talk to you again soon. 

Matt Willingham 

Thanks, Tim. Take care. 

Tim Buxton 

Bye.