James Bartle is the Founder & CEO of Outland Denim, an incredible company shaking up the fashion industry. It feels like we’re on the front of the tidal wave of change across the fashion industry right now, as more and more information is coming to light about what a harmful industry it is. In this episode, I catch up with James in the studio to talk about his own personal journey that led him to start Outland Denim and the evolution of the company and their aim for ‘Zero Exploitation’ throughout the whole chain - right from the cotton farm to the courier who delivers your jeans.

A few years back, I remember talking with James about the journey that he had been on personally as he was transitioning Outland Denim from a more purely “non-profit/charity” model to the “for-profit/Social Enterprise that it is today. James continues to inspire me with his quest for innovation and relentless change within the fashion industry. If you are out there with an idea or dream to see change in the world, I know that this conversation with my good mate James will give you some rocket fuel for your pursuits.

Be sure to check Outland Denim and treat yourself to a pair of jeans at www.outlanddenim.com. You can also follow Outland Denim on Instagram & Facebook @outlanddenim.

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/justicematters)

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James Bartle: It was very clear to me that this was an economic problem that needed to be addressed. Therefore, the way I was going to be able to help wasn't necessarily by going and rescuing people in this situation. There was already, I mean, quite a lot of people that I was aware of in the space but one thing that I kept saying was that it's fine to rescue someone out of these horrible situations they find themselves in. What is that next step that we're missing? What happens then? It was a really high number, the percentage of people that would end up in the worst position as a result of being rescued with nothing to go into. Then if they had just been left there.

That was really confronting for me. I knew I wanted to start something that gave them employment and equipped them with all the things they need so they can be successful on their own. I didn't have the strategy in my head. I didn't know how to really do it. I just figured it can't be that hard to make jeans. If I was going to make anything-

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Tim Buxton: You're listening to Justice Matters with Tim Buxton. A podcast inspiring the fight for a world where everyone belongs.

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Tim: Welcome to another episode of Justice Matters and I've got my good mate, James Bartle, on the show today. He is the founder and CEO of Outland Denim and he believes that fashion can lead the way in creating a more just world and his denim company's doing just that. It has received a litany of awards, most recently the Thomas Reuters Anti-slavery Award. It's a certified B company which you'll find out what that means a little later in the show. It's got A-plus on ethic reports by various fashion industry reports. This company truly is doing some incredible things.

One of the things I love about James is just how honest and raw and passionate he is. He's not afraid to acknowledge the mistakes that he's made along the way. I'm really grateful that I get the chance to share this conversation that I've had with him with you and the opportunity that you're going to have to learn about this amazing brand, Outland Denim.

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Tim: James, thanks for coming in, mate. How you doing?

James: Yes, good. Good, man. Stoked to be able to come and finally catch up like this.

Tim: First of all, how's the family? How's Erica and the-

James: Good, mate. About to have a baby any day. That's our third, little boy.

Tim: You got a little boy this time? Awesome.

James: Yes, yes, third time. Third time.

Tim: Good stuff, man. You said any day.

James: Any day. Well, she's not due till the end of the month but she's been early with our first two. We've got two little girls and so having a boy is pretty cool. Pretty stoked.

Tim: Yes, man. Dude, you're going to love it. Well thanks, man. Especially for coming down the mountain when you probably need to be close by.

James: Oh, no. She'll be fine, yes. [chuckles]

Tim: Make sure you give her my love when you get back up there. First of all man, I am just so thankful that we get to catch up. You've been pretty busy of late. I noticed there was a big investment option or a launch for people to be able to invest into Outland Denim and we'll get into a bit about Outland Denim and some of the stuff that's been going on and love to hear a bit more about the history of that.

What I really want to start with is just, thinking about you and your journey, if you look back at your formative years, can you think about any particular moment, it could be growing up, it could be recently, where justice became a real passion point for you or really fighting for the oppressed became something that, obviously, it oozes out of you now? Can you think of when that began for you?

James: I think a bit of a natural progression really. I mean I watched my parents. As I grew up, I was always getting out of my bed for someone who needed somewhere to stay. I was always watching my parents serve of people that needed something. They always just loved on the community. I guess it was always there and always in my face. I think I've always admired my parents for the sacrifice that I have seen consistently my entire life that they've demonstrated. I think that's always been there but it was really, I think, a moment for me when I was made aware of human trafficking.

Then following that journey through and then the experience I had during that that really changed everything for me was to see a really young girl for sale and how scared and vulnerable she was. It was a life-changing moment. I think having grown up in Australia, in a very privileged position, I just was completely naïve to the realities that the majority of our world faced in being vulnerable economically. They're in these terrible situations or having to sacrifice in ways that you and I may not have had to. I think it was that realization and then seeing this little girl, it just changed my life.

Tim: That was on a trip that you were on, is that right?

James: It was, yes. I mean, that all stand out of the first thing. Like I said, I watched the Liam Neeson film, Taken. I remember leaving the movies that night furious, outraged, wanting to start some kind of vigilante that would come against these and people in the world that were taking advantage of others and stealing and selling them. I just couldn't believe that was a reality. I know it's a fictional film but a few years later, after a lot of research, my wife and I learned a fair bit about human trafficking and what it looked like and I got the opportunity to travel with a rescue agency. Not to be involved in rescues but to see what the problem looked like on the ground.

It was on that trip that I saw this little girl and you couldn't ignore it. I mean, you walk through these red-light districts where there's lots of ladies for sale, men as well for sex. To be honest, it didn't confront me that much to begin with. It was like, "Okay, I've seen this. Ive seen those areas before. Nothing really changed." To be honest, they looked happy to me but as we got out of the main areas and into some of the darker places, I saw this young girl and it was very clear she didn't want to be there and she was very scared, very intimidated.

As I asked the rep that had taken me, I said, "This girl looks like she's just a kid." He goes, "Yes, she does look like just a kid." He said, "Actually looks like it could be her first night." She looked really scared. I said, "What can we do for her?" He said, "James, if you look around, they're everywhere." I pictured my nieces at the time. I'd do anything to save them if that were in this position. As I realized later, it's not because they choose to be here. It's not because their families choose to be here. It's because of desperation and so it was very clear as to what we needed to do. We need to address that issue. What makes them desperate? What makes them vulnerable?

Tim: Wow, man. I think we have very similar upbringings. I just found out just before we jumped in here on this studio that we were both PKs. Baptist pastors, our parents were Baptist pastors and we both, I guess, carry a, maybe some of the scars and the privilege of that upbringing like you said. Having parents that just really served and model that community, but I guess like you said, it's not until you can come face to face with so far away here in Australia. From a lot of these quite intense situations and it's not until you actually come face to face with the reality of it on the ground that really can turn the switch for you.

James: Yes, man. I guess we don't really realize, I mean there is need here in Australia as well, some pretty crazy needs as you start to get below the surface as well and some of the rural communities here in the cities, the homelessness, and these things. I have been surrounded by those things. I've seen those things, been spoken to about those things. For some reason, it never really resonated with me. It never drove me to want to do something. I always had compassion when I saw someone in need. That was a natural thing but to actually go then and do something was I guess not necessarily the action you would see following an event like that.

I don't know why it changed when I had to see something as horrible as I saw with my own eyes for it to actually change but mate it-- Growing up with the backgrounds both you and I have, it certainly does give you an education as to the range of needs that you see within all of our communities. That there is a real need for coming up with better ways of being able to be inclusive and inviting people from all backgrounds and cultures and needs. To feel at home and like they had purpose and a place in their own communities.

Tim: Well, you make a real valid point there, mate. You actually don't have to go overseas. You actually don't have to go far to encounter injustice, to encounter people that are in desperate need and that people that we can fight for in our own backyard and I think that's really important.

James: There's no question. You of all people have seen the craziest extremes of what it can look like abroad, but now I know that you work with those same people here in Australia and whether it's a refugee or whether it's just someone who's not able to fit into society as easily as others. It's just a all the time. There's this one movie, Pay It Forward I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I just love the movie because I think the concept is so brilliant. It's hey, you do something nice for me. It's not necessary that I now return that to you. You've done something to help me, and now I'm going to look for others to help as a result of what you've done for me. If we all continue on this journey, this movement grows and the world changes.

Tim: It does, yes.

James: I think the key to actually righting some of the greatest challenges we face today, especially on a social level, is to be able to address it with just love and understanding. When we can just stop and look at it through those glasses, things look different, but whilst we look at it in the business of life and we don't really stop and slow down and try to understand why that person is in that position, we will never be able to understand. If we can't understand, or we don't even try to understand, we can never love on them, and if we don't love them, then nothing changes. We all just want to be loved at the end of the day. That's what we're all looking for.

Tim: Totally. Wow, man. Just stopping and taking the time. Oh, man, I find that a lot whenever I see a situation. The moment I'm actually able to stop and maybe put myself in their shoes and ask, well, why are they acting out like that? Or why are they in the situation that they're in? I think when you lead with that element of empathy and ability to learn and to listen.

You realize, oh, my goodness, there's so much I can actually do to help in that situation, and not just help as in the handout, but there's a way that I can hopefully I give them a voice to share the situation they're in. Now, you chose to go obviously down, maybe a less conventional route to actually making a difference, in particular, with what you saw in the realm of human trafficking and into slavery work. You chose to build a jeans company. Can you tell a bit about how that came about and why you went down that route?

James: Well, it was actually on the very first trip, the one that I've already mentioned, where I was made really aware of how bad this problem was, and it was amongst poor communities that we were traveling and seeing that the needs that they had. It was very clear to me that this was an economic problem that needed to be addressed. Therefore the way I was going to be able to help wasn't necessarily by going and rescuing people in this situation.

There was already quite a lot of people that I was aware of in the space, but one thing that they kept saying was that it's fine to rescue someone out of these horrible situations they find themselves in, but it's that next step that we're missing. What happens then? It was a really high number. The percentage of people that would end up in a worst position as a result of being rescued with nothing to go into, than if they had just been left there.

That was really confronting for me. I knew I wanted to start something that gave them employment and equip them with all the things they need so they can be successful on their own. I didn't have the strategy in my head. I didn't know how to really do it. I just figured it can't be that hard to make jeans. If I was going to make anything Denim was the [crosstalk] I wanted to work in. I love Denim.

Tim: Does that have anything to do with your love for Tremblay jeans?

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Tim: Can you shed a light?

James: Oh, well, I don't know why, but ever since I was a little boy, I've always been very particular about what I like and what I don't like. Jeans had to be just right even as a little boy. I don't know, maybe it was meant to be. I just knew I didn't want to create a teacher at company. I was in the hinterland of the gold coast and so I'd seen like every second person I knew had a T-shirt brand and I was like, I want to do something that's going to have real substance they go to work hard to learn it.

I didn't know Denim was the hardest product to make, and I didn't know it was also the most competitive product in the marketplace. It was absolutely crazy to even start on a journey like this with people who didn't know how to sew, but we started. On that trip, I started working, put a partnership together with an NGO, a non-government organization, and said, "Look, I want to help in this way. I have a business in Australia, I'm going to use that business to fund this."

We've got people around helping and contributing their time, people made donations and we started to build this little bit of a movement where we could see that it was having a positive impact on those ladies that we first employed. Then we continued on this journey for about six and a half years before we even launched our brand. It was really so that we could prove that the impact of it being as powerful as it is where they themselves made the change.

Our job wasn't to be the white savior, come in and save the day. As much as probably that's the mentality I started with, I thought I was going to save the day. I realized that actually I could be really destructive in the way that my thinking was and the role I thought I needed to play in this, but really what it was, it was a role to facilitate the right things to come together from education-

Tim: I like how you put that, facilitating because I think that's really it, isn't it? Like even for all of us. You see your peers, those that have had parents or mentors that have equipped them with the tools to make good decisions themselves, they go on to be I don't know. I don't like calling it successful, but have a much more, I think stable life than those that weren't equipped with that that were given things but weren't taught how to use the tools. I think that's really, that's where we come from with Outland Denim is to equip them with the things they need to be successful themselves. Sometimes that comes in hard love and sometimes that comes in compassion. Always has an educational component to it. Because it's creating opportunity that otherwise they would not have. It's often that the inability to have the same access to networks, opportunity, or to training and education. That is some of the more systemic problems you have to come up against.

James: There's no question. I get really excited that we've been able to prove that business holds a really vital key to some of the big issues that we do face out, whether it be social, environmental, economic problems. I think business is actually one of the most exciting spaces to be right now. We're in a very unique time in history where businesses can actually use the power that they have to change people's lives or change the outcomes on industry and on environmentally and so forth.

Tim: Right. I think, if businesses that are successful right now changed the way they operated and did things, it would have a major impact, and if new businesses that started came in with that socially conscious approach to the way they do it. We can make a huge impact, which kind of leads me to my next question, which is we caught up we've been in touch over the years. I remember it was three or four, maybe five years ago when we caught up at it was it Jason's house?

Who's pad was it? A good mutual friend's house. You were chatting to me how you started out with a more of a charity model, and you shifted to that more business or social enterprise model. Can you talk us through a bit about that because I reckon there'd be a lot of people that might be running a charity or want to start a charity? I remember you specifically, I was just getting You Belong going at the time or had some traction heading there and you were like "If I were you, Tim, just consider this as an option, it's going to be a lot easier. Save you a lot of heartache". Can you talk to me about that?

James: Well, we started as a not-for-profit. The reason was that I felt it was the most purest way of saying, hey world, I want to make this impact. I want to work with these people, and this is not about me. Actually the further into it, I got the more I realized how much pride was involved in that. I wanted to be a martyr. I wanted to be somebody who was prepared to give up everything to help these marginalized people. I didn't realize how much pride was in that at the time. It's taken years and still, I discover things in myself. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh, wow. Like that's really the reason I was making that decision or this decision?", but that's a lifelong battle. Isn't it? Like dealing with those things inside that-

Tim: I feel like I'm constantly up against that myself.

James: We all are. I had another business I was using to fund it and I nearly killed this business. I was just taking everything out of it that I could to put into, trying to have this impact, and I realized that I had a couple of ways of financing this thing. Cash was the thing that stopped it from having any power. I either had to apply for grants and win grants. Then I go into competition with all the other amazing charities and not-for-profits around the world that need that money too or I go and get investors and I get cash, but I can't get investors with a not-for-profit. I had to look at the structure. I just went to all the other stakeholders and I said, "This is what I want to do and I don't want to do it without your blessing." I got everyone's blessing and I went out on my own. It was really scary because it's like, okay, now, I've got no backing whatsoever, it's only my business. No one could back a donation. No one could help in that way now that I'm a for profit business which we call profit for purpose.

We went down this road and I started getting investors on. As I brought investors on, we had cash flow. As I had cash flow, everything changed. We were, for once, able to invest into the things that we needed to be able to create genuine, lasting change, but I had to make that big shift. Again, it was game-changing for what we do but all because of cash flow.

Actually, there's one thing that really helped me jump over that line too and it was B Corp. I don't know if you've heard of B Corps, but it was probably the one thing that gave me the courage to do it. What it is is it gives you a certification. You become a B Corp. That means that they audit your business. You're a for-profit business, but they audit you to see what it is you're doing, what's important to you, and basically score you on whether you can even get B Corp certification or not. Going through that process meant that, "Okay, there's still a governance level there that's outside of our own board that's going to be be looking in and- not advising, but-

Tim: Keeping you accountable as well-

James: Keeping us accountable, right to what it is we say we stand for. That was really cool. When I saw that, that was probably the catalyst that made me go, "Yes, we're going to for-profit because now this exist, I remember having to wait-- I think it was a year or so it had passed legislation in the US, it had moved into Australia, hadn't passed legislation here in Australia so we weren't able to become a B Corp yet so I had to wait a year until that was through and then I-

[crosstalk]

Tim: Well, I find that pretty interesting because sometimes non-profits and that whole charity realm can kind of get by a little bit without being held to the highest standards of audits and, I guess, accountability as well because you've got a lot of volunteers and most people are just really giving their time sacrificially to make sure that these things happen. Sometimes you give them a bit more grace when they don't get it right, but I love that you embraced the almost, "No, it's important that we lead with integrity as well as a business."

I've got a print out here because there's two pages full of all the awards that Outland Denim has achieved in the last couple of years. It's super impressive. It's got obviously your B-certified corporation which stands the best for the world. You're in the top 10% of that. Currently, at the moment, you've got Global Fashion Agenda awards. The list goes on. The winner of the Thomson Reuters Stop Slavery Award 2020, this year. A+ in Ethical Fashion Report.

You guys are leading the way and you did have some, obviously, people have been supporting that. You had Meghan Markle come behind you and other well-known people that have obviously realized what an incredible impact you're having which has really helped you now. How important, I would say, has it been for you to go after- and you don't go after awards for the sake of awards, but how important is it for you to hold to that level of excellence and integrity as you move forward as a brand?

James: I think it's really important. The reason is that if you want to change something that's as wrong as what the fashion industry has become, wrong on so many levels yet has the ability to be an absolute life-giving industry. One in six people in the globe work within it. If you want to be somebody who can challenge and change the industry-

Tim: You said one in six people in the world work within the fashion industry in some level.

James: Work within the fashion industry in some level.

Tim: That's huge statistic.

James: If you want to change the world-- It's an amazing industry to do it through. We all wear it.

Tim: Sure.

James: It's a great place to start. Food would be another incredible place to do it, but then you need to be an industry leader. You know what's crazy is actually that people call us "The Disruptors". I just don't like the term. It's like, yes, as much as we're disrupting a way the things have been done, we're not actually here to disrupt and make things worse. We're here to come in and go, "Hey, we found a better way." That's taking a lot of investment, it's taking a lot of time, it's taking a lot risk, but actually, the changes we've made aren't that big.

We are called innovators all the time. There are some really cool innovations that we've been able to do in the pipeline, but really, it's not that innovative. It's actually just going, "Hey, how would you want to treat people?" If you treat people like that, what's the outcome of that? Can you measure that over time? What are we going to be able to show to the world? If you buy this product, it means this. It's really just that journey that, I guess, has set us apart why we've been able to experience that.

You mention the Thomson Reuters Foundation Stop Slavery Award. That's the biggest award we've ever won. The reason for that is Thomson Reuters is you know what I mean. It's such an incredible body to, I guess, give you their stamp of approval. The Stop Slavery Award is why we started- not the award but stopping slavery is why we started. Slavery doesn't just mean those that we picture like in the films. It's those that are oppressed by marginalized. It's the hurting people. That's how I see it.

We, obviously, have people in garment factories as slaves, in brothels as slaves, in the households as slaves, but it goes much broader than that in what we need to address. If you could become an industry leader and you could influence an industry that has the power to touch the lives of one in six people, then could you change the world? Is poverty something that has to be with us? I don't believe it has to be with us. I believe it's because of the choices that we make in the way that we run our industry, all the industries, all the way down to our personal decisions on what we buy, what we support.

My goal would be that if we could become an industry leader and if we could prove that this is financially viable but in fact, even more profitable than doing it the other way, then what would happen? Would the world change? Would we start looking at things like poverty as being something of the past? I said earlier, I think, that we're in a very unique time in history. I think this time will mark history as when industry stepped up and changed things. We might think governments in place to be able to address the social needs of our community, but I don't believe that. I believe that we are in place to address the needs of our community. If we use our businesses to do this, things will change.

Tim: Well, yes. It's personal responsibility then, isn't it? It's easy to say, "Well, if the government did this different, and rightly so, governments need to reform, policies need to change," but if we say, "Oh, it's up to the St. Vinnies or these charities to be the ones and I'll just give them my money to do what they do," then again, we kind of avoiding the personal responsibilities of the day-to-day things that we do, how we shop, how we live as consumers because we're all consumers. We're consuming products. We drink our McDonald's coffee before this. We all are participating one way or another in the economy in that respect.

From a personal perspective, this obviously hasn't been an easy journey for you. I couldn't imagine anyway. It takes a lot of hard work to set up a company whilst running another business, whilst having a young, growing family. Can you talk about maybe of those challenges to get there because we don't want to paint this thing with rose-colored glasses either and be like, "You just get out there and it's just as simple as one, two, three."

James: Well, you know all too well with your own journey. We often, my wife, Erica, and I would talk about you guys and watching you over there in a really tough country, in a tough environment, loving on people and risking so much to be there. That being absolutely inspirational for us and part of that journey and that is a real thing. It's like you need stuff to look at. You need others to look at and go, "Man, they're doing it, I got to keep going." Be inspired by others, but man, the journey is hard. I've had my lowest moments in here. 

I remember the first time- I'm not an anxious person and I'm very optimistic about most things but I remember sitting on the side of our bed, my wife had never seen me with anxiety and I was just gripped by it because I didn't know how tomorrow I was going to pay the wages of these people in Cambodia, whom desperately rely on this. The consequence for not paying them is high. It's not like here in Australia, where we've got welfare and we can probably go to someone we know and get some money or stay at their place or eat their place. It's not necessarily like that for all of our staff.

I was just thinking, my gosh, I can't pay them. What are we going to do? Miraculously, like in so many occasions through this journey, a bill would be paid or something would happen and I'd have the money. I could draw some money from here or borrow some money from there. I've just had to do that the whole way through. I remember emptying a milk bottle full of gold coins that my uncle had given me, and that's how I could afford to get the next flight back to do the next thing.

It has been hard and one of the most incredible outcomes of the challenge, because I think the challenge has to be there. In fact, if it's not there, I think you don't actually get to reach your potential.

The hardship is really good. All of last year, my goal was just to see the hardship as an opportunity. If I can feel peaceful amongst the chaos and the not knowing, and I can still be joyful and peaceful, imagine how much could be achieved, if you could be in that place. I can't say I'm quite there. I'm still working toward that. Every time I see one of these next challenges, I go, "This is my next opportunity to see if I can get through this one a little better than I did last one."

Tim: Wow, man.

James: I know that there's always a way. I always say to myself, "It looks like it's not possible to us today. I know that there is a way if we're committed, if we really want to stay true to what we're called here to do, which is to love and look after these particular people group right now, then we will find a way. This is 10 years I've been in this for now. Our brand's only four years old. There were six and a half years of development before that.

Tim: Totally. Wow.

James: Hey, man, I've had no food in the fridge. My wife and I looked at each other one night, years ago, now, we laughed and we were like, "We literally don't have food. What a cool experience. How awesome is that?" I'm trying to get a really small insight into what it's like for these other people. I could have gone down the road and ask somebody for some food. They don't necessarily get to do that. It's really cool that we get to be challenged in this way and just learn to be better at those challenges.

Lean into the challenge is my advice for anybody. Don't see it as what was me, see it as all that's really cool though. Because many people don't, man, they get to go through life just cruising. The substance isn't there. You keep getting beat down and get back up, beat down and get back up and get stronger every time. You get better at it, and wiser. I think we just need to embrace the challenges and the hardship.

Tim: If I was in a church, I'd say, "Preach it, man." Thanks for being, I guess, so honest and open with those challenges. I feel you with the anxiety, with the dark days, the weight of responsibility you have carrying it, carrying a family, young family, and also so many people that rely for their livelihoods on this on Outland Denim going and being successful.

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Tim: Justice Matters is brought to you by youBelong. If you'd like to learn more about their work, empowering refugees to integrate and thrive in Australia, head on over to youbelong.org.au. There you'll find ways to get involved, volunteer, and financially get behind the several initiatives they've got going on. There's also a stack of articles and blogs that you'll find there that are really informative and engaging.

Now, did you know this podcast is actually a video podcast featured on YouTube? Just search Justice Matters TV on YouTube and watch each episode right there. While you're there, hit Subscribe and get notified each time a new video drops.

Can you talk a bit about maybe some of the more challenges as a brand as well? I'm thinking we're in the middle of this coronavirus pandemic. You've had a launch for investment. It's not been easy, as you alluded to, there's times when you're not sure if it would be successful enough. I'm sure people out there would love to hear.

James: Yes, man, the business has absolutely had massive challenges, and I don't know how we're still here. I really don't, so much of the time, like I've said, we've had no money, I can't pay wages yet. We have 100 staff in Cambodia.

Tim: Because everyone thinks, you look at the Instagram post and you've got Meghan Markle and other famous people promoting it. Suddenly, "Oh, that must just mean you can just sit back on your laurels and everything's just fine."

James: I think I'm rich. Yes.

Tim: Yes. Everything's just fine. We all know that that just in some ways can make things more difficult.

James: With that experience, absolutely. That's a great example of one that made it really difficult. It was really good, and I'm so grateful for the support of Meghan Markle, and she's supported us on so many occasions now. We see amazing things where the media will say, "Meghan and Harry have just gone out in LA somewhere. We know it's this shirt and these shoes, we presume it's her favorite Outland Denim jeans," no one even knows.

That's pretty incredible, man, to have that, and that speaks to who she is as well. I think she's a pretty amazing human to support brands. She's always looking for brands to help.

Tim: Exactly.

James: She wore it and we had just launched in the top two department stores in Canada. We've just launched or signed with David Jones to launch here in Australia. We were growing really quickly, and then on top of that, Meghan Markle turns up in Dubbo here in Australia.

Tim: Yes, I remember that.

James: Gets off this plane wearing Outland jeans. I just arrived in Cambodia the night before. I woke up because it's three hours behind over there in time, and my phone is going mental and find out that's like Meghan Markle's worn Outland Denim jeans, the media is going mad. There's the TV appearances, they want someone to speak on this. I jumped on a plane and left straightaway thinking, this is amazing, I can't believe it.

I had my sales manager with me at the time in there and he's like, his phone just going out notified every time there was online sale and was just going ding, ding, ding. It was incredible, like, "Whoa, man, I wish we had more products." Because we sold out our product really quickly and they really want what she wears. There's a little bit of overflow, but mainly she wears these jeans, they want that jeans. Now, Harriet Black has become famous because of Meghan Markle.

What followed was this incredible amount of growth. I had employed 46 new seamstresses as a direct result of what happened there, which is great.

Tim: Fantastic.

James: Yes, that's achieving what our goals are, is that [unintelligible 00:37:38] people. Man, managing that now. We've got exposure internationally. We've got department stores internationally that are wanting to look at collections and we're not ready and so we're having to hustle and, man, honestly, we lost the culture during that period of time of what Outland is and how we treat our people and love our people.

When you lose guidance there because you're all hustling so hard, you take your eyes off what's really important. It doesn't mean the way we treat people, Justin, we're here to work, and we focus on this only rather than, "Hey, man, are you okay today?" That was a really tough period where I feel like we could have fallen over. We made it through and we're ready to grow again, we've spent the last year and a half really stabilizing as a company.

Then to go into a pandemic like this, where I've never experienced anything like this. I didn't have a game plan. I go to YouTube, learn how to do lots of things. YouTube isn't able to tell me how to manage this. I really have to rely on, I guess, what you've learned over time. I've got a really strong Christian faith, and I really rely on that to make decisions. From a worldview point of view, it's, what's important? My faith tells me what's important, and I focus on those things. Today, that's really why we've been successful.

As if it's like, why some important people are important, focus on the people, love the people, create opportunities for the people. Yes, you need to have the economics or your business functioning well. Man, if you marry them both, and you supercharge your business. You talk about some of the brands that don't necessarily value that human component of their business. I don't just mean their direct that work at HQ with them. I mean, those right down in the supply chain level, they don't value them.

Over time, they're going to lose faith. As consumers become more wise to the realities of our fashion and the choices they make, they're going to back brands like Outland Denims. It's what we're seeing now, our sales have increased direct or consumer sales, as many brands have online at the moment, our exposure is increased, our opportunity to be able to see the outcomes in poor communities that we have seen has increased. The option is bigger now, as a result of COVID. Black Lives Matter, it's another one.

Tim: Yes, I was going to say, even as that has become an issue that we've had to, we really need to put a lot of focus on as it's come to light in recent events. I love the fact that you've been willing to stop, listen, learn, and even make those course corrections in your own company. Can you talk a bit about how you've done that?

James: Sure. Remember, the media, we had to, as a brand, make a stand, where do you stand. The media are pretty ruthless with these days. There's a big issue going on, where do you stand as a brand, because we want to know whether we canceled you from society or not, it's a pretty scary thing to be brand.

Tim: Social media can be hard because it'll take anything that you put out there and it can be weaponized into any direction anyone goes out.

James: Absolutely.

Tim: They do not say something is to say something, right?

James: I believe not necessarily for everybody, but I think when you've got a responsibility like our brand, that's where you do have some small level of influence over your community or within your community, not over. You do have to say something. I remember when I--

Tim: For people that have a strong core conviction and the faith that people do matter, that people are equal, regardless of race, ethnicity, and whatever the case might be, there is an obligation really, isn't there for us to--

James: There really is. I struggled as it came across my desk, and my first reaction was this-- It's horrible what's going on, but as a brand, we can't speak up about this. That's not the battle we're fighting. That was my first thought. I went home and I really thought about this and I just got deeply convicted, deeply convicted of luck.

Tim: Hey, man, thanks for your honesty. Most people wouldn't admit to that.

James: I just thought about those people that feel that way. I'm not talking about why people feel that way. I'm not talking about what the solution is, I’m not talking about any of that. There's a question that was really clear to me that the black community were asking, "Do I matter?" My answer to that is, "You matter." Now, I don't know one with the Black Lives Matter organization. I'm answering this question, "Do you matter?" Absolutely you matter, and I'm so sad that that's a question that needs to be asked. I'm so sad about that. Then I had to look internally and go, "Wow, I've actually been a part of this problem."

Not because I don't see them as someone with different skin color as equal. It's because I've grown up in a society where there is some major issues. Some of the sayings, man, like "they have only just been made aware of" a horrifying Eeny, meeny, miny, moe catcher. I thought it was Tigger by the toe. They were real sayings in the community. When I see people stand up and fight this, I go, "You don't think there's a problem with our society when they were real sayings that we were teaching our children to run around and catch a… like crazy, man.

I see, as a brand, we have a responsibility. I love people. Skin color doesn't matter. We have to now incorporate more visuals into our campaigns of all kinds of people, not just black people, like people from all different backgrounds, ethnicities. We're going to do that and also then size. Size has been one that's been put across my table for years. I always go, "Hey, I get that, we're fighting this one battle, that's always been a thing, hey, I don't want to take my eyes off.

I know that this is what we're fighting for, we're fighting for this and those things do matter. We're fighting for that. I'm not going to take my eyes off it."

It was true this that I realize. As much as somebody with black skin doesn't feel they belong or neither to somebody who's of a different size to your typical sample sizes that we make samples in one size, they've shipped over, we have to find a model that fits that size and we shoot them.

We've just gone with a traditional model. It takes a long time to change that and get your systems to change, we're in that process now.

Tim: There's a systemic nature to it, it's not something that's just it takes courage and, man, we are all on a journey of discovery, whether we mean knowingly or not, being complicit to a society that hasn't valued everyone equally. I love the fact that you're willing to make those changes, because so often we think that they're compartmentalized issues. At the end of the day, more and more there, I realize that they are all one and the same.

These are the hard things, even you can be thinking you're doing the best thing you can be. Again, you can do better. It's that strive to now, we've got to do better. We've got to acknowledge where we can.

James: Social media is very scary today, so intimidating. Unfortunately, it's become such an unhealthy place in lots of situations. My experience so far has been, we've had a lot of push-back, and we, of course, get nasty comments and all of that, but overwhelmingly, we get a lot of support. If you're going to be real and authentic, I don't believe, generally, you're going to be crucified for it. You do need to be real and authentic-

Tim: -and have virtual signal, you can pretend that you care, but you don't really, that has to be.

James: It has to be. That's what we believed as a brand we needed to on this particular issue with Black Lives Matter. We needed to stop and go, "I don't know where we stand on this, haven't thought this through." I copped a bit of slack from the side and respectful, most of it was respectful on, "Hey, but do you know--" I go, "Yes, I get that the media don't necessarily report things accurately all the time." I'm not speaking about any of those things. All I'm saying the Black Lives Matter, you matter."

Tim: Yes.

James: Is there lots of things that need to change in every camp?

Tim: Absolutely.

James: 100%.

Tim: This is a moment in time. This is something that we can.Man, thank you. I love that. It's been a journey, 10 years, like you say, six and a half years of actual development and the rest of actually being a public brand. I believe it's only the beginning. Can you highlight anything that's coming up and exciting for Outland Denim moving forward? Because I've been privy to some conversations.

James: Man, it's so much exciting. I look at this business so big and I go, if you stop measuring business off of the three elements that needs to be measured off of our social return on investment, our environmental return on investment and our economic return on investment, if we measure all three of those things together, what could be built, it's incredible, and now's the time for that.

A brand is one thing, but imagine if we could open this up to be able to produce for others brands. What if we could get these other brands that already have influence and power and now stop making their stuff so that their brand has the same influence as Outland Denim has? Then you supercharge the brand, or the movement, or the impact that can be had. We've just finished our very first production run for Karen Walker, who's an incredible brand start with based on the fact that the brand cares about these things. She's an icon in the fashion industry, with sampling for a second brand at the moment.

Really, that's the future, that is to produce for other brands as well as Outland Denim, and just build them to be household names that people think on Denim. It's Outland Denim. I believe that product is the answer to solving these things. Imagine if you just go and buy a pair of jeans that you love. Then you realize that the byproduct of that was you changed the people's lives that made it, but not just the ones that made it, not just the cotton farmer, not all those people in the supply chain, but the retailer. Today we hear about going direct to the consumer because there's more margin.

That's, again, because we're measuring only one measure. What if we support the bricks and mortar retailer? What if we support the sales associate on the floor? What if we support the consumer with the things they need to be able to talk about it and create this movement to be even greater and stronger and more powerful than it is? Then you have something that's really holistic, but at the moment we don't see that happening in lots of businesses, especially in the entrepreneurial world. It's direct consumer, cut out the middleman, it's like, let's not support.

Tim: Local businesses.

James: People rely on this, the communities rely on retail, and retail is where we get to interact a lot of the time and socially, and it's a good thing. The byproduct of our jeans is that you support people from the beginning to the end of that process of creating and selling a product. Then, environmentally-

Tim: I was going to say.

James: -you change the outcomes on our environment. What if the world was left environmentally in a better position as a result of creating a product and the people were too?

Tim: How do you do that?

James: Possible? It's possible and we're working on things, which I can't tell you tonight. I want to, but man, they're game-changing. If you can turn fashion into something that's good-- You see the CSIRO and the things that they're working on with cotton and you look at the Denim Mills around the world and the dying processes and the reduction of water and things that we're working on, it's just incredible.

Tim: I just love the energy and the passion for like, we're not just going to settle for this one thing. We're going to just go after the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

James: Unfortunately, we have settled. There's new studies now that will actually link slavery to environmental degradation. When I see the environment being destroyed in the communities we work within, it's sad because I know that there has a direct result on the people we care for, but we see this movement where this global warming thing, there's all these issues, which are real issues that we need to address, but they forget the people.

Slow fashion is a thing right now. I'm just making the statement here that slow fashion is not the answer. It might be the best thing we have right now on an environmental level. Man, the impact that will have socially in poor communities is devastating if we reduce our consumption.

There has to be a better way than that, and that's what I'm committed to. I'm going to find the way that you address both these issues with one product. If you can do that with one industry, you can do it with all industries. I believe the future is really bright if we continue to innovate and believe that it can be done. We've got like 1000 investors in our brand you alluded to it earlier. Those investors are real impact investors. One of the greatest challenges I've faced actually in raising investment is that investors aren't very educated here in Australia around real impact investing. How to measure that and how to put value on that?

We went to the crowd, we went to the Australian and international community. We ended up with over 900 Australian investors who say- and 80 something percent of them said that they were there because they were there to have impact with their investment, but all expected return. We're here to have impact. That's the new way that businesses are going to raise money. They're going to go to the crowd. They're going to raise small amounts where people aren't risking as much. They're getting the values for the companies that they need to get. There's lots of good reasons for keeping that. Then, you're going to see these kinds of initiatives have a real go.

They haven't been able to have a go in Australia because impact investors don't really know how to- and they're not there yet. They're evolving because it's quite new. We've got a lot of amazing impact investors out there that are keeping up in this equity credit funding model that's a year-old here in Australia is speeding that process up. I'm pretty optimistic about what the future looks like. Not just for Outland Denim, but for lots of those that are out there trying to carve a new way. Because, industry, the way it's been done, hasn't worked. We've seen that over a long period of time now. Now it's time to do something new, and it's happening.

Tim: Yes, man. I'm excited. I am proud to say I'm one of Outland Denim's investors and I was able to get on that mainly because I knew you and I believed obviously on the work that Outland Denim has done. Is there a way for people to get involved still, is that option still available?

James: It's going to open up. We're actually going to open this up. We had such success from this campaign. Again, it was in the worst possible time, we were like "Just stop. Don't go ahead with this-

Tim: As you're not going to make it.

James: -you're not going to be a success." We're the fastest company to hit our minimum target that they've had, it was epic. It was amazing, it blew us away. What we've realized is the real power isn't the money you raise. The real power is you. The real power is those 1000 investors we now have that are out there as brand ambassadors, that are talking about our brand, supercharging our brand. If we are able to increase that, what if we had 3000 investors, what would happen to the brand? If we're really here for impact, giving it every chance it's got of being successful in a retail store, let's just say we launch a new Nordstrom store--

Tim: Because you're in the US now. Right?

James: Yes. We've launched with Nordstrom. Bloomingdale obviously, it's a really tough time for them now. This is a great opportunity for brands to support them, to see that they can still be there next year. Our investors have the opportunity to be able to be a part of that journey. Then, I guess, at the end of the day, hopefully, they also then receive better dividends than they would from their other investments to be able to continue the journey on to just make sure the momentum continues.

Tim: Oh man, I feel like every time I chat with you, I'm like ready to just go and start a social enterprise and try and make a difference that I know Outland Denim is. If you want to buy a pair of your jeans, I'm wearing my trusty-dusties right now, but where do they go? Outland--

James: outlanddenim.com.au in Australia, or just .com in the US. We've got warehouses in both regions and also in Europe as well. We're in the UK. We can deliver directly, but then we've also got Nordstrom's for women's in the US, Bloomingdale's for men's, East, West Coast.

Tim: David Jones here.

James: David Jones here in Australia. People say, "Oh, how do we support you and can we make a donation?" I say, "No, you can't." If you want to support us, buy a pair of jeans. Actually, buying a pair of jeans is way greater than if you gave us a $200 donation. It has a way greater impact. It's about buying the product, loving the product, talking about the product. If you don't like it, don't buy it. We don't want charity purchases.

Tim: No. They're great jeans. They last. They've been my best jeans that I've ever owned.

James: I'm pleased to hear that.

Tim: I'm not just saying that because you're a mate. They can learn more about you as a company, as a brand too, by going there. Because like you said, you want people to be informed consumers. You want them to know that they're actually having an impact and making a difference. I've got one last question for you as we wrap this up. I try and ask all my guests this, and it's simply this. Why does justice matter to you?

James: Oh, man. That's a deep question. No way you can answer that quickly. It can't not matter. It can't not matter. I don't know how any human believes that it could be right they have more privilege than someone else. When I look at the world, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, I think you deserve the same love. We don't all get the same opportunities, life isn't fair, but that's not really what this is about. Justice matters in that. I will do everything I can to love and support those that I come into contact with. If we all do that, then, man, the world is a much nicer place to be.

Tim: Thanks, James. I really appreciate you taking the time to come in, man. You've lived it. I'm grateful for your friendship. What can I say?

James: Thank you, man.

Tim: All the best.

James: No, I appreciate it, Tim. You've been an inspiration to me and my family and others in my office as well as. We've watched your journey and your family's journey and your wife as well, man, you take it to the craziest places, and your kids and the things they would have experienced. We just go, "Man, I love being able to rub shoulders with someone who's lived it as well." You're raw, honest guys as well, so I'm going to get the real, the real stuff and I really value that, learning from others that have been there too. Thank you.

Tim: You're the best, man.

James: Awesome.

Tim: Get back to your wife.

James: Will do. Awesome.

Tim: See you.

I hope you enjoyed this podcast that I had with James Bartle. Now, if you'd like to hear the rest of my conversation with James and learn about his unique thumbs, yes, I said thumbs, head on I've at to patreon.com/JusticeMatters where for as little as $5 a month, you can get access to bonus content and behind-the-scenes extras. You can also interact with myself and the podcast there. On that note, I'd like to give a special shout-out and thanks to my friend, Mike McDonald, mate, thank you so much for becoming a Patreon. Thank you so much for your support of me and the show.

Now, special mention goes to music artists, John Ardt and David Gungor, also known as The Brilliance for the music that is used on the podcast. Guys, go check them out. As always, shout-out goes to Jose Biotto for your audiovisual expertise in producing the show.

Lastly, if you are enjoying this podcast, would you consider rating it and leaving a review? Whether it be on Apple podcast, Spotify, Google Play, wherever you listen. It goes a long, long way to helping to get this message out there. I'd really appreciate your reviews and your support.

Guys, if you're not liking it, you can ignore what I just said. Don't leave a review, just move right along. No. Seriously, guys, I hope you enjoyed the show today. Join me again soon for another episode of Justice Matters. I am your host, Tim Buxton. Thanks for listening.

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